TexasCHLforum.com

Cosmo, I agree that there is a chance that this could have ended up pretty badly. However, I think the OP erred on the side of the lesser of two evils. Overall, the situation had an excellent outcome, and it doesn't sound like the two "upstanding citizens" contacted the police after having a gun drawn on them "for no reason".

On a side note, our discussion reminds me of this joke :

Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Liberal Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed?
Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away?
What does my wife think? What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
What does the law say about this situation?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion...

Conservative Answer:
BANG!

Texan's Answer:
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...
(sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed)
Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"
Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..."
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Daughter: "Nice grouping Daddy!"

Although I have only read the first couple pages of this post I find it a bit disturbing that the author used the subject, "finally had to draw". Does that mean he has been walking around all of this time looking for a reason to draw? I work in Deep Ellum in Dallas and if I pulled my gun on ever shady looking character that approached me I'd be the one in jail. I totally understand the right to protect yourself, but in my opinion, you seemed a little quick on the draw.

Of course it's just my opinion, but this seems an apt scenario for the old adage: "Better judged by 12.....".

Isn't it interesting, I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt and interpreted the subject as meaning "I tried everything but I finally had to draw"

Dragonfighter wrote:I now know that Gigag was correct in saying an aggravated assault occurred; but now I understand that the justification statutes supersede the criminality. I was under the impression, and now believe I was wrong, that if justification exists the crime did not occur. Thanks guys.

Yup - and it's up to a jury to see if the defense applies or not...or really the justification. Defenses/Affirmative defenses are a whole different animal. A justification is a legally acceptable "excuse" if you will.

FWIW, I wrote a post in the Walmart thread that references this thread as well. Rather than duplicate it here, I'll link to it. It references a similar (though hypothetical) discussion we had here a couple of years back on this same topic. As I see it from reading this thread and the descriptions by the OP, I believe his use of force (Threat of Deadly Force) in this case was justified. I expound on that in the other thread, if your interested as to why.

I've been in a similar dark alley/night-time situation outside my workplace, though it played out considerably differently. My alarm bells were going off the entire time and I was sure to have my pistol close (but still holstered). The demeanor of the criminal (and associate) were considerably different, but my gut told me he was up to no good. Had I been approached in a manner similar to the OP's situation and the totality of circumstances warranted as I believe it was in his case, I would not have a problem drawing. They were foolish enough to stick around and my call to police and their arrival confirmed that fact. He was hauled off on 3 different charges - Promotion of Prostitution, Possession of a Dangerous Drug, and Possession of Drug Paraphernalia (if I remember correctly).

I hope that you can appreciate that gut instinct is important to Police, as it is important to us. We should all be able to articulate the totality of the circumstances that precipitate that reaction, and I believe that is what happened in the OP's situation. The OP and the officers involved were there on the scene and are in a much better position of judgment than any of the rest of us, and the outcome of the situation confirms to me that his threat by drawing was warranted. As I understand his situation, it would have been ill-advised to have waited until he was cornered/surrounded before making that judgment call against multiple aggressors.

Anyhow, here's the link to my post in the other thread, which contains a link to the original thread from a couple of years ago at the bottom:

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 29#p400429" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

*EDIT*
Here's a link to a post with a brief description of my nighttime confrontation. The version told there is considerably condensed and sanitized, but will give you an idea of the events. There was a lot more that went on than I can reasonably describe here. As noted earlier, it's difficult to accurately portray here on a forum a totality of circumstances, but the outcome confirmed my gut instincts in the situation.

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 03#p276003" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's a lot of posts that I haven't read here, but am I the first one to notice that the topic, "finally had to draw" implies an inevitability in drawing? I don't believe that having to draw is inevitable for the CHL holder.

Embalmo

Embalmo wrote:There's a lot of posts that I haven't read here, but am I the first one to notice that the topic, "finally had to draw" implies an inevitability in drawing? I don't believe that having to draw is inevitable for the CHL holder.

Embalmo

Nope it was mentioned in previous pages.

gigag04 wrote:

Embalmo wrote:There's a lot of posts that I haven't read here, but am I the first one to notice that the topic, "finally had to draw" implies an inevitability in drawing? I don't believe that having to draw is inevitable for the CHL holder.

Embalmo

Nope it was mentioned in previous pages.

Yep-I figured as much. Now I'm curious to read those posts.

Embalmo wrote:I don't believe that having to draw is inevitable for the CHL holder.

I agree it's not inevitable but most people I know who carry a gun do so because they think they may need it some day.

Or as an old marine said, "When confronted by something nasty your reaction will probably be, 'I thought this might happen some day.'"

Fangs wrote:However, I think the OP erred on the side of the lesser of two evils.

That is the essence of the Chapter 9 "necessity" defense: "I had to break the law to prevent a greater tragedy that I reasonably believed would have occurred if I had not broken the law."

Common examples include:
--Kicking down someone's door and entering their house is illegal, but if you're rescuing them because their house is on fire, you're justified.
--Violating traffic laws in a medical emergency.
--Trespassing against legally posted warnings in order to stop a crime in progress (whether stopping the criminal act, or seeking refuge from it).

Remember, even if the OP hadn't shown the shady duo that he had a gun, even if he had quietly drawn from concealment, or bladed away and lifted his shirt to take a firm drawing grip, he would have broken the law by "intentionally fail(ing) to conceal". Even if no one knew it except him and/or his companion, it would be illegal. Justified? Absolutely.