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Amazing.

jmra wrote:

philip964 wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/22/us/georgi ... Stories%29

Former Deputy indited. Not one who through flash grenade into crib, injuring baby, but deputy who lied to judge to get warrant.

And it only took a year.

The wheels of justice sometimes turn slowly, too slowly for some, but once turning, can be awfully hard to stop, and impossible to deflect.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/juro ... d-35720642

Ex Deputy found not guilty of lying to a judge to get a no knock warrant. This was a federal trial, the local DA decided her work was sloppy but did not rise to the level of a crime.

Other articles I saw have titles like County refuses to pay medical bills of injured infant.

The child has received an almost one million dollar settlement from one county in this multi county raid.

Child still needs more surgery.

Another casualty in the war on drugs.

philip964 wrote:http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/juro ... d-35720642

Ex Deputy found not guilty of lying to a judge to get a no knock warrant. This was a federal trial, the local DA decided her work was sloppy but did not rise to the level of a crime.

Other articles I saw have titles like County refuses to pay medical bills of injured infant.

The child has received an almost one million dollar settlement from one county in this multi county raid.

Child still needs more surgery.

Another casualty in the war on drugs.

Not exactly. The state court grand jury no-billed, not the same as a "local DA deciding..."

I have learned during 40 years as a lawyer that it is virtually impossible to arrive at firm accurate conclusions about the outcome of a trial unless you were in the courtroom to observe the evidence, the witnesses, the arguments, etc.

Everyone of a certain age is familiar with the OJ Simpson murder trial, and most have an opinion about the outcome, since almost the entire proceeding was televised for all to see. It's a good example of the burden of the state to prove its case by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Unhappily, the prosecutors did such a poor job of it, and the defense was able to exploit those lapses, that the jury was fully justified in not believing some of the evidence, and Simpson was acquitted.

JALLEN wrote:

philip964 wrote:http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/juro ... d-35720642

Ex Deputy found not guilty of lying to a judge to get a no knock warrant. This was a federal trial, the local DA decided her work was sloppy but did not rise to the level of a crime.

Other articles I saw have titles like County refuses to pay medical bills of injured infant.

The child has received an almost one million dollar settlement from one county in this multi county raid.

Child still needs more surgery.

Another casualty in the war on drugs.

Not exactly. The state court grand jury no-billed, not the same as a "local DA deciding..."

I have learned during 40 years as a lawyer that it is virtually impossible to arrive at firm accurate conclusions about the outcome of a trial unless you were in the courtroom to observe the evidence, the witnesses, the arguments, etc.

Everyone of a certain age is familiar with the OJ Simpson murder trial, and most have an opinion about the outcome, since almost the entire proceeding was televised for all to see. It's a good example of the burden of the state to prove its case by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Unhappily, the prosecutors did such a poor job of it, and the defense was able to exploit those lapses, that the jury was fully justified in not believing some of the evidence, and Simpson was acquitted.

Exactly why I said the other day it's about winning once it gets to court and not getting to the facts and truth. It wasn't just me being the "alone (sp?) the custodian of proper correct answers". Attorneys are paid to win the case for their client, not to sort out what actually happened and get to the truth.

If you ever had to stand fast outside a known drug dealer's home not knowing what you may face going in them your perception on no knocks may changed. It's real easy to give your opinion while in the comfort of your home office.

The reason LE uses no knocks is because they work well with minimal casualties on both sides. The ones wanting to forbid no knocks should educate themselves by strapping on body armor, grabbing a rifle, and get into formation. You give the bad guys time to grab weapons and aim down the fatial funnel there would be more blue blood spilled.

It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used. Maybe a few changes could be implemented such as gathering better Intel before getting the warrant, but having to stand there and knock waiting for the person to open the door is suicide. Some of the scum we served warrants on would rather slit your throat them look at you.

I understand everyone else's opinion and I used to feel the same until I actually had to go in.

nightmare69 wrote:
It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used.

If innocent lives are lost the system is not working.

anygunanywhere wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:
It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used.

If innocent lives are lost the system is not working.

I can't help but wonder how many innocent lives are lost due drone strikes also. Unfortunately, collateral damage is bound to occur. It just a unfortunate part of fighting evil.

The police are not executing these no knock warrants on foreign military targets or terrorists. The police are not the military and rarely are military tactics appropriate in law enforcement. No knocks really should be reserved for only the most dangerous cases. In what percentage of the cases do the subjects of a announce and enter raid put up armed resistance? We know it's very rare. And, if these crazy drug dealers are so dangerous, why enter at all? Much safer to catch 'em outside. And what's with the tacticool flash bangs? How many houses do these things set on fire?

nightmare69 wrote:If you ever had to stand fast outside a known drug dealer's home not knowing what you may face going in them your perception on no knocks may changed. It's real easy to give your opinion while in the comfort of your home office.

The reason LE uses no knocks is because they work well with minimal casualties on both sides. The ones wanting to forbid no knocks should educate themselves by strapping on body armor, grabbing a rifle, and get into formation. You give the bad guys time to grab weapons and aim down the fatial funnel there would be more blue blood spilled.

It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used. Maybe a few changes could be implemented such as gathering better Intel before getting the warrant, but having to stand there and knock waiting for the person to open the door is suicide. Some of the scum we served warrants on would rather slit your throat them look at you.

I understand everyone else's opinion and I used to feel the same until I actually had to go in.

Been there done that in over 3 years of combat, have you? no then can it. NNW needs to done away with because its abused and civilians should NOT be doing them PERIOD!

ScottDLS wrote:The police are not executing these no knock warrants on foreign military targets or terrorists. The police are not the military and rarely are military tactics appropriate in law enforcement. No knocks really should be reserved for only the most dangerous cases. In what percentage of the cases do the subjects of a announce and enter raid put up armed resistance? We know it's very rare. And, if these crazy drug dealers are so dangerous, why enter at all? Much safer to catch 'em outside. And what's with the tacticool flash bangs? How many houses do these things set on fire?

The purpose of no knocks is to have the element of surprise so the suspects don't have time to put up an armed resistance. And yes, the ones I went on were Aryan brotherhood who manufactured dope and ran guns, not the nicest people. Some of these guys never left their house so we had to go in. Some of these dope dealers are smart and have learned how to avoid being caught.

JP171 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:If you ever had to stand fast outside a known drug dealer's home not knowing what you may face going in them your perception on no knocks may changed. It's real easy to give your opinion while in the comfort of your home office.

The reason LE uses no knocks is because they work well with minimal casualties on both sides. The ones wanting to forbid no knocks should educate themselves by strapping on body armor, grabbing a rifle, and get into formation. You give the bad guys time to grab weapons and aim down the fatial funnel there would be more blue blood spilled.

It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used. Maybe a few changes could be implemented such as gathering better Intel before getting the warrant, but having to stand there and knock waiting for the person to open the door is suicide. Some of the scum we served warrants on would rather slit your throat them look at you.

I understand everyone else's opinion and I used to feel the same until I actually had to go in.

Been there done that in over 3 years of combat, have you? no then can it. NNW needs to done away with because its abused and civilians should NOT be doing them PERIOD!

I thank you for your service and respect your opinion. Reality is that no knocks will most likely be around long after we are gone. Most of our swat guys are either still in, or were in the military and we all are on the same page.

nightmare69 wrote:

JP171 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:If you ever had to stand fast outside a known drug dealer's home not knowing what you may face going in them your perception on no knocks may changed. It's real easy to give your opinion while in the comfort of your home office.

The reason LE uses no knocks is because they work well with minimal casualties on both sides. The ones wanting to forbid no knocks should educate themselves by strapping on body armor, grabbing a rifle, and get into formation. You give the bad guys time to grab weapons and aim down the fatial funnel there would be more blue blood spilled.

It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used. Maybe a few changes could be implemented such as gathering better Intel before getting the warrant, but having to stand there and knock waiting for the person to open the door is suicide. Some of the scum we served warrants on would rather slit your throat them look at you.

I understand everyone else's opinion and I used to feel the same until I actually had to go in.

Been there done that in over 3 years of combat, have you? no then can it. NNW needs to done away with because its abused and civilians should NOT be doing them PERIOD!

I thank you for your service and respect your opinion. Reality is that no knocks will most likely be around long after we are gone. Most of our swat guys are either still in, or were in the military and we all are on the same page.

dynamic entry was brought about for one purpose and one purpose only VOA for the safety of the DET in a war zone, will it still be used yes it will and will still be abused because of the fact that some of the special teams from police are military and use the same techniques they learned in the military. it needs to be done away with because its abused. think about it, the US Police Force, we take only prior military and you must have no compunction about killing civilians, the current police are CIVILIANS and very seldom need VOA to keep the DET safe and even increases the risk of the DET being killed or hurt. Knowing we can't do away with it then there MUST be some type of check added that the LEO agencies have no control over nor the local courts to stop the abuse and collateral damage. again it needs to stop period

nightmare69 wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:
It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used.

If innocent lives are lost the system is not working.

I can't help but wonder how many innocent lives are lost due drone strikes also. Unfortunately, collateral damage is bound to occur. It just a unfortunate part of fighting evil.

War is not law enforcement. Law enforcement is not war. There is a difference and if you cannot see the difference maybe you should change your profession. When LEO starts looking at us as collateral damage then we need to change things. Do you recall something called the Bill of Rights? Due process? Innocent until proven guilty? That child was guilty of nothing but being in the way of a flash bang device. What you propose as the norm is not fighting evil. What you propose is evil.

anygunanywhere wrote:
War is not law enforcement. Law enforcement is not war. There is a difference and if you cannot see the difference maybe you should change your profession. When LEO starts looking at us as collateral damage then we need to change things. Do you recall something called the Bill of Rights? Due process? Innocent until proven guilty? That child was guilty of nothing but being in the way of a flash bang device. What you propose as the norm is not fighting evil. What you propose is evil.

We fight violence with violence. It may be going hands on to lethal force, all are forms of violence. If you think the entire mentally of LE needs changing then I challenge you to get hired on by a dept, go through the academy and get out there and make a difference.

We can debate LE weapons, tactics, and mentally all day but at the end we are just trying to contain the crime and violence on the streets and go home to our families in one piece. Also trying not to end up on YouTube.