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NcongruNt wrote:
In response to your opinion, I heartily disagree. Every CHL Instructor I have met does not teach CHL classes as primary employment. Most have other trades or are retired, and are the type of people who are small business owners and do more than one thing for a living. They work hard to run their businesses, and my personal impression of these folks has been that they teach CHL classes primarily to promote concealed carry and defensive shooting in general. For these kinds of people, there are far more lucrative ways to earn money than teaching a state-regulated course on concealed carry. These folks (craftsmen, small business owners, etc.) are not the money-grubbers you seem to be making them out to be.

I did NOT say all CHL instructors. I know that most are honorable good people and I'm darned glad to have them on my side. However, there are some in every crowd who are more concerned with personal issues.

135boomer wrote:

NcongruNt wrote:
In response to your opinion, I heartily disagree. Every CHL Instructor I have met does not teach CHL classes as primary employment. Most have other trades or are retired, and are the type of people who are small business owners and do more than one thing for a living. They work hard to run their businesses, and my personal impression of these folks has been that they teach CHL classes primarily to promote concealed carry and defensive shooting in general. For these kinds of people, there are far more lucrative ways to earn money than teaching a state-regulated course on concealed carry. These folks (craftsmen, small business owners, etc.) are not the money-grubbers you seem to be making them out to be.

I did NOT say all CHL instructors. I know that most are honorable good people and I'm darned glad to have them on my side. However, there are some in every crowd who are more concerned with personal issues.

That could be said for just about any group of people in just about any situation, which is why I believe the point is moot.

There still has not been ONE argument against open carry either supported by the facts or different from the EXACT SAME (and tired) old arguments copied direction from the Brady Bunch against home defense and concealed carry -- except one:

I don't like it and it is therefore not for me.

Every other 'reason' is just a bad as what the Brady folks do...and by now everyone knows that.

NcongruNt wrote:

135boomer wrote:

NcongruNt wrote:
In response to your opinion, I heartily disagree. Every CHL Instructor I have met does not teach CHL classes as primary employment. Most have other trades or are retired, and are the type of people who are small business owners and do more than one thing for a living. They work hard to run their businesses, and my personal impression of these folks has been that they teach CHL classes primarily to promote concealed carry and defensive shooting in general. For these kinds of people, there are far more lucrative ways to earn money than teaching a state-regulated course on concealed carry. These folks (craftsmen, small business owners, etc.) are not the money-grubbers you seem to be making them out to be.

I did NOT say all CHL instructors. I know that most are honorable good people and I'm darned glad to have them on my side. However, there are some in every crowd who are more concerned with personal issues.

That could be said for just about any group of people in just about any situation, which is why I believe the point is moot.

Well, that is what "every crowd" means. If you think the point is moot, that is fine. However, I don't agree. Have a nice day, I'm out.

HerbM wrote:There still has not been ONE argument against open carry either supported by the facts or different from the EXACT SAME (and tired) old arguments copied direction from the Brady Bunch against home defense and concealed carry -- except one:

I don't like it and it is therefore not for me.

Every other 'reason' is just a bad as what the Brady folks do...and by now everyone knows that.

You seem to be repeating yourself:

HerbM wrote: Of course the arguments against open carry are tired old arguments -- they are tired and old because they are the same ones the gun banners use against the CHL/CCW and even defensive guns in the home.

There is only one valid argument against open carry. It is true, and it is sufficient.

"I don't want to open carry, as it is not right for me."

All the other reasons turn out to be just nonsense when applied to anyone else and we know this the same way we know that the arguments against defensive firearms and the CHL are bogus:

Opinions are fine when they sound reasonable unless they just don't correspond to the reality of the evidence.

People doing it everyday prove that all of this works. Home defense, concealed carry, and open carry.

The only difference that means anything is personal choice.

Choice is good. Gun control is bad.


ALL gun control is bad.

Perhaps you would like to bring something new to the discussion. Where are these "FACTS" you mention, and how to we obtain them. It seems to me that Charles brought a valid argument supported by historical facts that occurred here in Texas in response to the CHL statute being passed. You seem to be dismissing what he has contributed to the discussion.

NcongruNt wrote:

HerbM wrote:There still has not been ONE argument against open carry either supported by the facts or different from the EXACT SAME (and tired) old arguments copied direction from the Brady Bunch against home defense and concealed carry -- except one:

I don't like it and it is therefore not for me.

Every other 'reason' is just a bad as what the Brady folks do...and by now everyone knows that.

You seem to be repeating yourself:

HerbM wrote: Of course the arguments against open carry are tired old arguments -- they are tired and old because they are the same ones the gun banners use against the CHL/CCW and even defensive guns in the home.

There is only one valid argument against open carry. It is true, and it is sufficient.

"I don't want to open carry, as it is not right for me."

All the other reasons turn out to be just nonsense when applied to anyone else and we know this the same way we know that the arguments against defensive firearms and the CHL are bogus:

Opinions are fine when they sound reasonable unless they just don't correspond to the reality of the evidence.

People doing it everyday prove that all of this works. Home defense, concealed carry, and open carry.

The only difference that means anything is personal choice.

Choice is good. Gun control is bad.


ALL gun control is bad.

Perhaps you would like to bring something new to the discussion. Where are these "FACTS" you mention, and how to we obtain them. It seems to me that Charles brought a valid argument supported by historical facts that occurred here in Texas in response to the CHL statute being passed. You seem to be dismissing what he has contributed to the discussion.

No, not really because there are no facts that support the gun control position -- including the arguments against open carry.

Someone would have to post something because rank opinion, some study or some such that shows some gun control work -- but that isn't going to happen because all that has been refuted over and over.

In the places where open carry is practiced they have no problems -- show otherwise, don't speculate or make up problems that don't exist.

That is precisely equal to the "blood will run in the streets" argument against CHLs.

There is no difference when you or they make up problems that are not supported by the facts nor any evidence.

Gun control is nothing but propaganda. All gun control.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Again, this simply won't happen. The only way to get open-carry passed would be to modify the current CHL statute to delete the requirement to conceal; rename the licence, and modify TPC §30.06 to remove references to concealment. Thus, "ghostbuster" signs won't impact people carrying openly since they will be doing so pursuant to their HCL (Handgun Carry License). Thus, businesses will have to use 30.06 signs to bar open-carry and in so doing, they will also bar concealed-carry.

Chas.

Well,you're the lawyer,and I'm not.....so I'll assume you know what you're talking about here. Any time there's a simple solution-politics make it difficult and getting lawyers,legislature,and the public to all agree on a simple solution is the root of that problem. While we don't agree 100% on the OC topic-I understand your position,and respect it.
JL

Hey Herb.

I feel your pain.

In spite of my posts on these threads, I try to stay away from these open carry discussions.

Really, I try. I would be right alongside you. I agree with you. We be blood brothers.

This thread has reached the dead horse phase. Your intentions are honorable, but these folks will not change their minds because this forum is dedicated to concealed carry. You need to go to TCDL and rant a bit. It will make you fell better.

Everything in its time. OC will be a big change. Let's get more involved over at the TCDL site. These fine folks here will support us.

I see Charles' argument as very valid.

That is why I have started a few other threads today to see if we can focus on a few things I think are more important.

Have we learned nothing from the salami slicing tactics of the antis?

The first step is to change the penalty for 46.035 (a) to a $10 fine, with no license suspension or revocation.

Heck, license wise, do as Tennessee. The license there is handgun carry, open or concealed, you pick. I really think that this is a right that we should get back, even if it's just going to be for the sake of having that right given back to us since it's rarely going to be excercised from what I've seen.

My EXACT thoughts. It should be PERSONAL CHOICE.
I will also add that if you are willing to support one GUN law that is PROgun why wouldnt you at the very least support (vote for) all pro gun laws even if you chose not to use it.



In short, if you are PRO GUN.......be PRO GUN 100%. Dont support ONLY the laws that affect YOU personally. Support ALL PRO GUN laws.

Gun Owners need to STAND TOGETHER.
In time it would be normal to see OC guns.



.....and yes it is legal for a female to go shirtless in public......as long as she is NOT flaunting it (er'...them)
Thats not to say she wouldnt get UNWANTED attention from LEO.

drw wrote:

DoubleJ wrote:Bah! you can carry openly on your own property (or property under your control).

That's when the need for protection is at its least.

Or the very most...Depends on your point of view...

But I am glad to say that I do see and understand your point...

Guys,

I am a CHL instructor. Been in it since it first started.

I am not really for open carry. But at the same time I'm for Vermont carry. That is, no CHL required to carry a concealed weapon. Yes I know in Vermont it can be unconcealed, but I still feel it needs to be out of sight. As long as you can legaly own a handgun, I think you are legal to carry it. I teach the classes cause I believe in our 2nd amendment rights and being able to protect ourselves as well as others. I just think the arms should be out of sight.

anygunanywhere wrote:Hey Herb.

I feel your pain.

In spite of my posts on these threads, I try to stay away from these open carry discussions.

Really, I try. I would be right alongside you. I agree with you. We be blood brothers.

This thread has reached the dead horse phase. Your intentions are honorable, but these folks will not change their minds because this forum is dedicated to concealed carry. You need to go to TCDL and rant a bit. It will make you fell better.

Everything in its time. OC will be a big change. Let's get more involved over at the TCDL site. These fine folks here will support us.

I see Charles' argument as very valid.

That is why I have started a few other threads today to see if we can focus on a few things I think are more important.

Just to be clear here, I am not in opposition to open carry. I simply believe that it will not happen right now, given the timing and political climate. What I am opposed to is an absolutionist mindset that does not take into account the precarious balancing act required in getting legislation passed to make steps forward regarding the RKBA. There are a lot of things being worked on for the upcoming session that will take us forward and closer to a situation where open carry in Texas can be had without stomping on concealed carry.

I simply think that it would be a very poor time to press our lawmakers to focus their efforts on an open carry bill, especially when it has the distinct potential to be to the detriment of concealed carry. The legal climate and public perception of self-defense firearms needs to change significantly (and it is, slowly) in order for open carry to become an accepted enough idea to pass and become accepted. This takes time, and screaming "we want open carry now" doesn't help the situation. Neither does stating that informed caution and risk assessment equate a person to a Brady Bunch gun-grabber. Insults like that weaken the credibility of the Open Carry movement, and only serve to push people away from your cause.

The only reason I even got involved in this discussion is because someone insulted Charles, by implying that he is ignorant, and I'm not going to stand for that. Very little has been brought to the table in the past eight open carry threads here, so I have resolved to let people state the same thing repeatedly so they can feel good until the thread dies out. These threads have only served to strengthen my opinion against an open carry bill, as no one can bring anything new to the table, and when someone does bring a dissenting opinion and articulates it with historical evidence, he is called and anti and told (in essence) that he's as good as Tom Brady himself. Some people need to reconsider who their friends are, and stop believing that anything and everything not identical to their ideals is uniformly against them.

I am through with this issue until someone can be civil about it.

NcongruNT, I understand.

I was trying to help Herb calm down a bit.

I hope he does a search and find the other threads on OC. This is pretty much a rehash of the past.

Our cause needs passion and the passion needs to be focused on things besides each other's opinions on OC. Heaven knows I fell the same way and we don't need to keep beating each other up.

Anygunanywhere

I'm really glad someone saw this last night as well...Its been bugging me all day...

I was not impressed by the tone and delivery of the media's portrayal of this issue...But that's a gimme...

I absolutely agree with Charles's analysis, and even though I am a supporter and would like to have the option to OC if I choose to do so...The hurdles and near impossibilities with achieving this capability are daunting to say the least...

But I have to pose the question...

How, and what do the other state's that recognize it's citizens unalienable right to keep and bear arms do to solve the issues Texas would have to resolve, before Texans are truely given full trust and respect to do this???

I believe the biggest hurdle is that the state governments curtail restrictions by people and entities from carrying firearms for lawful defensive purposes by simply telling them they cannot...It might really be that simple, because it is not about a person's or businesses personal view on the issue, although I respect and would defend their right to refuse service or patronage by some of us in this situation...I know, it sounds hypocritical, but it, to me is more ironic than anything at this point in my drivle...

I do not patronize a business that I know might have a problem with me carrying a gun in their facility because I want to prove some vain and immature stance against them (and others) personally...I carry because I am not always there to begin with (meaning I have other places to be, and other things to do during my day), and that they should be glad that there are people who choose to take this issue seriously enough to get trained, certified and jump through all sorts of governmental hoops to do so, for an unalienable right (that is higher than any govermental authority anyway) that has always been there for us to choose to do so...

This is always a fundamental issue in our community, and as always the discussions (on this) are some of the best we ever have...