Shooting at Oregon community college.

[sugar land dave]

If you could stack people toe to head all the way from the Earth to the Moon, you could have 20 complete stacks. That represents seven billion people. One of those stacks would be all Americans. So for the actions of a handful we should penalize everyone else in the stack? If someone gets drunk, they don't come get the beer in your refrigerator do they? Yet drunk drivers kill people every night somewhere in the nation. This spreading of socialist ideas disguised as political correctness everytime an evil person does something wicked needs to end.

[TXBO]

Mojo, I've heard the slippery slope argument before. I'm going to assume that such is your counter-point to me asking why you are advocating doing nothing? Let me know if I've got it wrong. And I think the other questions are really a list of fears.. Perhaps very valid fears since that's a list of stuff that has been tried.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I think clinging to the slippery slope argument when there is so much low hanging fruit is irrational.
This is just my opinion: We can't do nothing. If we do nothing, we don't get to decide. That's what I'm afraid of much more than a slippery slope.

Anyone who looks at the reach of our current federal government would not consider fear of incremental deterioration of rights as irrational.
Furthermore, with the current number of guns in the world and current technology, it's simply irrational to think that any law to restrict guns would be effective in stopping evil.

[Middle Age Russ]

My prayers go out to all affected in this event of "senseless" evil violence. Any time we hear of such an event our thoughts turn to how such things can be prevented. Real preventive measures must demonstrate effectiveness in theory as well as practice.

Statists argue that something must be done following the big-government, anti-Liberty formula we know so well -- calling for more laws, regulations and restrictions for law-abiding people to follow. The evil actors in these events, invariably, are not law-abiding people, so the Statist-proposed solutions are proven completely ineffective to the discussed ends (though staggeringly effective to other, more nefarious ends as history shows). Individual liberty -- the bane of Statists everywhere -- involves inherent risk since we are all apt to avarice in one form or another. Even so, destruction of individual liberty will not serve to mitigate the effects of evil in the hearts of men. The lynchpin of Liberty, the basic right to self defense, and the proper tools to effect it, is not something we can budge on. When horrific, evil begotten attacks are in progress, free men must be able to act with the force necessary to stop the evil-doer.

Actions are needed mitigate against future events such as this -- actions related to the vectors evil uses to gain a foothold inside us. Beiruty hits on some valid points in this vein -- parenting, socialization, mental care -- and rbwhatever1 mentions education as well. Each of these, as well as Faith, has been a focus point of Statist social engineering for over a century, resulting in many of the societal issues we have today. Our modern, morally relativistic society finds more entertainment value in mayhem than social value in the mores and values that have enabled society since ancient times. Faith, Liberty, the work ethic, critical reasoning, individual human rights, etc... are all discounted in lieu of "fairness", sound-bytes, rhetoric, special interests and sensationalism.

We are most certainly on a slippery slope -- 2A arguments aside -- toward a future more base and brutal than rational minds could ever dream of if we don't act against this evil progression daily. We did not get to this point on the slippery slope in a day or after a single event, and we can't hope to simply jump off of it -- positive movement will take time and effort to reverse the effects of Statist social engineering/experimentation. It is up to us as leaders in our families and communities to emphasize the timeless values that enabled a peaceful, prosperous society by living these values, demanding adherence to them in how we parent, in our education system, in the people and issues we vote for, and in how we conduct ourselves in public discourse. Doing any less is effectively joining ranks with the Statists and their useful idiots and hastening the downfall of society.

[VMI77]

Mojo, I've heard the slippery slope argument before. I'm going to assume that such is your counter-point to me asking why you are advocating doing nothing? Let me know if I've got it wrong. And I think the other questions are really a list of fears.. Perhaps very valid fears since that's a list of stuff that has been tried.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I think clinging to the slippery slope argument when there is so much low hanging fruit is irrational.
This is just my opinion: We can't do nothing. If we do nothing, we don't get to decide. That's what I'm afraid of much more than a slippery slope.

What makes you think you or we get to decide anything? Or to put it another way, what makes you think that if we compromise, cooperate, or capitulate, next time we're going to decide anything, or that our concerns will even be considered? There is no more room for "compromise." There is no logical reason to accept ANY additional restrictions on our right to bear arms.

There is no slippery slope "argument" because the course of gun control is not hypothetical; it has already been decided and is part of the historical record. Compromise means surrender. The gun grabbers will never cease their efforts to take our guns. Their motive isn't to prevent crime but to render us dependent and defenseless. And they don't stop with firearms. They move on to pellet guns, knives, then to bows and arrows, then to beer glasses. We don't have to imagine the end game because we can already see it in places like the UK and Australia.

They're not anti-gun, they're anti self-defense. The gun is just the most effective tool for self-defense. If bananas were the most effective tool for self-defense they'd be banning bananas.

[kopking10]

Mojo, I've heard the slippery slope argument before. I'm going to assume that such is your counter-point to me asking why you are advocating doing nothing? Let me know if I've got it wrong. And I think the other questions are really a list of fears.. Perhaps very valid fears since that's a list of stuff that has been tried.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I think clinging to the slippery slope argument when there is so much low hanging fruit is irrational.
This is just my opinion: We can't do nothing. If we do nothing, we don't get to decide. That's what I'm afraid of much more than a slippery slope.

Anyone who looks at the reach of our current federal government would not consider fear of incremental deterioration of rights as irrational.
Furthermore, with the current number of guns in the world and current technology, it's simply irrational to think that any law to restrict guns would be effective in stopping evil.

I had to create an account for this Oregon shooting. I am deeply saddened and annoyed (been reading this forum for some time now). So, Just the other day I was discussing the open carry gun law (2016) in TX with my wife whether we should have one. We currently have no guns policy in the family while I practice shooting twice a month at the range. Then, when Mr Obama said that by toughening the guns law would/ might help. At a quick second, I thought, maybe it would help preventing mass shooting. But then hey, if I am delusional and wanted to harm someone I would find a way to get a gun anyway. Simple as that. Just like minors finding ways to buy alcohol/ drugs.

What if, one of the student had a gun too? There would be few scenarios.

First, he himself could have been shot/killed. 10 dead.
Second, he tried to shoot but panicked and ran. 10 dead
Third, he tried to shoot, panicked, missed a couple of shots and finally get the assailant. Maybe 1 dead??? You never know.
Fourth, he tried to shoot, panicked, missed and shot one other innocent student and then got the assailant. Maybe 2 dead???
Fifth, he was experienced enough and quick drew to eliminate the threat. Maybe 1 dead???

The point is that, law is there to prevent the law abiding citizens. In America, we will not be able to change the culture in the nearest future. Why not instead of strengthening the gun law, educate the law abiding citizens, teach them how to response for situation like this?

This is just sad. I will have a discussion with the spouse tonight. It could have been our children, herself and the innocent.

[MeMelYup]

Requiring licensing to own and medical background clearance as it the case in Canada would not stop such incidents too. Cause, no one can stop the intent of a determined criminal mind from committing mass murder.

More restrictive laws would not stop such incidents. Most likely all his firearms passed the current restricted laws.

Parenting would do.
Social integration and mentoring would do. i.e. detecting some anti-social behavior statements and trying to intervene.
Mental care would do.

Good point, I would also suggest to mention substance abuse as a potential factor for causing mental illness and strange behavior.

Some parents with anti-social children don't believe there is anything wrong with their children. It's a family problem and they won't seek help from the people that could help them, or they get referred to the wrong help by friends.

[VMI77]

Uh, Communist China has gun laws Obama likes, didn't stop 50 people from being killed in a KNIFE attack, including 5 police officers, and an additional 50 people injured.

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/ ... 74319.html

The death toll in a knife attack orchestrated by alleged “separatists” at a coal mine in northwestern China’s troubled Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region has climbed to at least 50 people—including five police officers—with as many as 50 injured, according to local security officials who say nine suspects are on the run.

After gun control comes knife control. Emsheepment verus empowerment.

[MeMelYup]

Uh, Communist China has gun laws Obama likes, didn't stop 50 people from being killed in a KNIFE attack, including 5 police officers, and an additional 50 people injured.

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/ ... 74319.html

The death toll in a knife attack orchestrated by alleged “separatists” at a coal mine in northwestern China’s troubled Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region has climbed to at least 50 people—including five police officers—with as many as 50 injured, according to local security officials who say nine suspects are on the run.

After gun control comes knife control. Emsheepment verus empowerment.

Yes it does. https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

[VMI77]

Some relevant lessons from the Westgate mall attack in Kenya: http://weaponsman.com/?p=25922

Most untrained people are passive even in the face of certain death.

The source for this is a remarkable and thoroughly reported analysis in Foreign Policy by Kenya-based reporter Tristan McConnell. McConnell has pieced together this story from dozens of interviews with survivors, and his conclusions are bitter and blunt:

Far from a dramatic three-day standoff, the assault on the Westgate Mall lasted only a few hours, almost all of it taking place before Kenyan security forces even entered the building. When they finally did, it was only to shoot at one another before going on an armed looting spree that resulted in the collapse of the rear of the building, destroyed with a rocket-propelled grenade. And there were only four gunmen, all of whom were buried in the rubble, along with much of the forensic evidence.

During the roughly three-and-a-half hours that the killers were loose in the mall, there was virtually no organized government response. But while Kenyan officials prevaricated, an unlikely coalition of licensed civilian gun owners and brave, resourceful individual police officers took it upon themselves to mount a rescue effort. Pieced together over 10 months from more than three dozen interviews with survivors, first responders, security officers, and investigators, the following account brings their story to life for the first time since the horrific terrorist attack occurred exactly two years ago.

Ad hoc security: (l-r): non-Kenyan security professional with M9; Kenyan licensed carrier with Glock (note IDPA patch!); Kenyan citizen or (given lax trigger discipline!) plainclothes cop with CZ-75. The CZ is very popular in Kenya both with police and civilians. REUTERS/Siegfried Modola

[VMI77]

http://weaponsman.com/?p=25786

"Gun control," UK style.

Both of the officers were women — Fiona Bone, 32, and Nicola Hughes, 23. They were killed by gunfire — a lot of gunfire, 32 shots — and a grenade, all delivered in a single fusillade in about a half minute.

Cregan was already wanted for another gun-and-grenade murder, and it turned out he’d committed a fourth murder and multiple firearms assaults before that. The 29-year-old career felon had reportedly had his eye removed by members of a rival gang.

Britain’s vaunted gun control laws are so effective — handguns have been banned since 1996 there — that Cregan had no difficulty amassing an arsenal of approximately ten weapons, including the Glock, and automatic weapons. This did not count his stock of grenades, which were mostly Yugoslav models. The ones used in the 2012 killings were M-75s; after Cregan turned himself in to police, they found some of his grenades in a storm drain stash (the black ribbed bodies are M-75s. They use NATO-thread fuzes, IIRC).

Note that Britain not only has nationwide gun control, it’s an island, with a modern, First World police force and a short menu of ports and airports of entry. Every one of Cregan’s weapons originated outside the UK and passed through that border barrier as if it were nonexistent. Of course, as the lessons of Australia, the Philippines, and several other highly firearms-restrictive jurisdictions suggest, this result is foreseeable if not predictable.

We can't stop...well, won't stop...millions illegally crossing our border, but of course gun control will work as intended by the libs....that is, allow criminals ready access to guns while the rest of us are rendered defenseless.

[philip964]

http://www.oregonlive.com/education/ind ... ill_1.html

Does this mean the community college was not gun free?

[bmwrdr]

Uh, Communist China has gun laws Obama likes, didn't stop 50 people from being killed in a KNIFE attack, including 5 police officers, and an additional 50 people injured.

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/ ... 74319.html

The death toll in a knife attack orchestrated by alleged “separatists” at a coal mine in northwestern China’s troubled Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region has climbed to at least 50 people—including five police officers—with as many as 50 injured, according to local security officials who say nine suspects are on the run.

After gun control comes knife control. Emsheepment verus empowerment.

Yes it does. https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

That is in Europe and the weird exeption made for religious purpose is what bugs my mind.

"Examples of good reasons to carry a knife in public can include:
##taking knives you use at work to and from work
##taking knives to a gallery or museum to be exhibited
##the knife is going to be used for theatre, film, television, historical reenactment or religious purposes, eg the kirpan some Sikhs carry"

[NotRPB]

Today President Obama favorably mentioned Australia and its gun-control laws enacted after a mass shooting there a few years back. You guys should research that. Scary stuff, and unconstitutional as applied to USA.

dlh

Seems to be working well there <sarcasm>
“Middle Eastern” Terrorist Opens Fire on Police, One Dead in Sydney, Australia
By Pamela Geller on October 2, 2015

http://pamelageller.com/2015/10/middle- ... alia.html/

Sydney Airport bikie gang murder
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-03-30/t ... ce/1636456

Feb 28, 2015 - A man has been arrested at Perth Airport in relation to shooting in the Perth airport
https://www.google.com/search?q=bikie+s ... ot+airport

Home invaders had safer work environment
https://www.google.com/search?q=gold+co ... nces+surge+

[mojo84]

I don't care what is going on in other countries. I care about what is going on in our country and how prepared we are to confront and stop these sorry lowlife misfits when they attempt to engage in such mass killings.

Just heard on Fox News the shooter had no prior mental health history. However, he wore military clothing. So I guess we need to add military clothing as a disqualifier to own or have guns.

Anyone know if he had prior criminal history?

[RoyGBiv]

http://www.oregonlive.com/education/ind ... ill_1.html

Does this mean the community college was not gun free?

The way I understand things in OR, you cannot be criminally prosecuted for licensed concealed carry on campus but you can be expelled, fired or have your vendor relationship terminated.