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Start issuing 9mm self defense ammo to the thugs in Chicago and see if it leads to fewer repeat offenders.

AndyC wrote:

johncanfield wrote:I don't want to start a caliber war but I wonder how my EDC Sig P239 in .357 Sig compares to a .45 round in knockdown power? I do own a 1911 and it's one of my favorite shooters, dear wife enjoys it as well

Well, knockdown power doesn't exist but for grins I calculated kinetic energies for these calibers, rounded up to 3 decimal places for easier reading:

230gr .45acp @ 900 fps:

230gr = 0.0149037 kg
900 fps = 274.32 m/sec
Ek = 560.763 Joules


115gr 9mm @ 1200 fps:

115gr = 0.00745187 kg
1200 fps = 365.76 m/sec
Ek = 498.457 Joules


125gr .357 Sig @ 1500 fps:

125gr = 0.00809986 kg
1500 fps = 457.2 m/sec
Ek = 846.564 Joules


Very impressive, huh? Not so fast. Let's take this object:

500gr = 0.0323995 kg
220fps = 67.056 m/sec
Ek = 72.842 Joules

Pretty weak, huh? Well... it's a 500gr broadhead arrow @ 220 fps.

As I've always said - ain't about the energy per se - it's how that energy is used to cause physical damage.

Yep, I've seen a deer pretty much gutted and leg broken from a lowly broadhead arrow.

AndyC wrote:I'd sure hate to take a broadhead through my chest-cavity - eish! I have no idea what the volume of the permanent cavity would be, but I'd bet it's spectacular.

It's basically like having good real estate; location, location, location. Shot placement is critical, then the amount of shock to the system and damage to the body for wound cavity and bleed-out play the role of taking down an enemy as fast as possible.

And then there was my tongue-in-cheek wrecking ball example:

5 tons @ 10 mph:

5 tons = 4,535.92 kg
10 mph = 4.47 m/sec
Ek = 45,324.198 Joules

So I'm giving up my guns, buying a huge crane and wrecking ball, and hiring a driver to follow me around with it wherever I go.

I'll be here all week, folks. And please be sure to tip your servers.

But seriously, I blame Hollywood in large part for creating and embellishing the myth of small arms knockdown power, a myth that the Bloomberg and Soros factions are only too pleased to perpetuate. Handguns slamming people off their feet, and shotguns blowing people 10 feet backward and out of windows.

Handguns are the handiest defensive tools we have because they're small and easily carried, are capable of good accuracy to modest distances, can deliver more than one round quickly and, with many modern bullets and loads, will penetrate enough to damage some necessary infrastructure and plumbing. Heck, even a .50 BMG at close range won't knock down a BG...perforate him, yeah, but not slam him through a wall.

That's why, for home defense, I've switched to a phased-plasma rifle in the 40-watt range with the shoulder thing that goes up.

AndyC wrote:I'd sure hate to take a broadhead through my chest-cavity - eish! I have no idea what the volume of the permanent cavity would be, but I'd bet it's spectacular.

It's amazing how much flesh a spinning broadhead tears up. Almost knocks me down just thinking about it.

Beiruty wrote:The guy was shot dead center mass. Heart and spine hit. I do not know for how long he was able to breath. However, he was eliminated from fight instantly.

The decedent has been identified as 30-year-old Donovan Chopin. If you drop that name into google, the first hit is for a popular online funding site on his behalf. I won't link that here. Interesting that the police didn't identify the bad guy for almost three weeks, but the family/friends knew immediately.

Acronym 1/31/2017 10:38 AM

AndyC wrote:

johncanfield wrote:I don't want to start a caliber war but I wonder how my EDC Sig P239 in .357 Sig compares to a .45 round in knockdown power? I do own a 1911 and it's one of my favorite shooters, dear wife enjoys it as well

Well, knockdown power doesn't exist but for grins I calculated kinetic energies for these calibers, rounded up to 3 decimal places for easier reading:

230gr .45acp @ 900 fps:

230gr = 0.0149037 kg
900 fps = 274.32 m/sec
Ek = 560.763 Joules


115gr 9mm @ 1200 fps:

115gr = 0.00745187 kg
1200 fps = 365.76 m/sec
Ek = 498.457 Joules


125gr .357 Sig @ 1500 fps:

125gr = 0.00809986 kg
1500 fps = 457.2 m/sec
Ek = 846.564 Joules


Very impressive, huh? Not so fast. Let's take this object:

500gr = 0.0323995 kg
220fps = 67.056 m/sec
Ek = 72.842 Joules

Pretty weak, huh? Well... it's a 500gr broadhead arrow @ 220 fps.

As I've always said - ain't about the energy per se - it's how that energy is used to cause physical damage.

yeah but "Speed Kills". A 62 gr 5.56 would carry about 1900 joules

The faster you go, the bigger the mess

AndyC wrote:Absolutely - but my example is to illustrate that it doesn't require a lot of kinetic energy to do a lot of damage.

All I heard you say was that 45s are out. 45 hollow points with broad heads screwed into the hp cavity are in. Man up little kiddies. This are for serious!

It's interesting to think there must be more energy imparted to the shooter's hand than the target. The recoil is from what spits out the muzzle, and that is both propellant and bullet. The target doesn't get hit with propellant, just the bullet.

Amazing we can endure shooting our guns.

I'll admit the term "knockdown" is unscientific and misleading, but, honestly, isn't this more of a terminology dispute than literal mythology?

There is bound to be more of an "oh, crud" factor to getting hit with 240 grains of .45 ACP than, say, the 80 grains of lead Granpappy's .32 rimfire pushed out of the muzzle at about the same velocity. The .45 ACP can be said to have more je ne sais quoi than the .32, and those who stoke their 1911's with clips call it knockdown.

No gun that leaves me standing when I shoot it will physically launch me off my feet if I'm shot with it. I get it. Knockdown, as a term, is more like what a homeopathic "doctor" means when they use the word "cure." Knockdown doesn't exist as actual knock your punk self down. A better term is needed. It's a colloquial, marginally meaningful measure of relative pacification.

Not that I recommend using firearms on relatives. Gotta keep my terminology precise. Precise shot placement, too. That's a biggie.