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I want to get the thoughts of folks on this board about something my friend experienced yesterday.

A friend of mine was having lunch at Jax grill yesterday (I-10 and Shepherd in Houston) and she saw "a bunch" of guys openly carrying handguns on their hips. She said that one of them looked like my Glock 19, but she is NOT very knowledgable about guns, so this means it was basically any full or mid-size black semi-auto.

She did not see any badges or uniforms and these guys were also not making any attempt to conceal their weapons. The men fit the general description of cops (clean-cut, young, fit, etc), just not in uniform. She asked me about it, and specifically asked whether she should have stayed.

I told her that I would probably assume they were cops, but might ask the manager just to make sure. I'm assuming these guys were either known to management, or would have at least identified themselves when they all walked in with openly carried guns. If the manager said that he had no clue who they were, I would have left, and probably called the police just to make sure everything was OK.

Are LEO's allowed to open carry when they are not in uniform? I have not seen this myself, and it seems like a bad idea on several levels.

Maybe they were traveling. I

If they weren't causing trouble, I wouln't care.

Cobra Medic wrote:If they weren't causing trouble, I wouln't care.

I got the story second hand, but by all accounts they were just having lunch. She has alot of friends in various law enforcement agencies (FBI, ICE, DEA, etc), and is used to being around people with guns, so she wasn't too concerned. Just thought it was weird.

I do lunch downtown frequently and see apparent civilians OCing in restaurants all the time. If I am nosey enough I almost always eventually see some sort of badge, but I don't want to be obvious about looking.
If they act like they are doing what they are supposed to be doing, I tend to ignore it.

Kind of an argument in favor of OCing not alarming the TX populace if you think about it...

A rule of thumb that Excaliber brought up on another
thread is that GG's use holsters, while BG's don't use
holsters.

The reason that BG's don't use holsters is so
they can throw their gun away if LEO's are closing in,
and they won't have a holster on when apprehended.

Still, seeing OC without badges is kind of an unorthodox
situation.

SIA

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:A rule of thumb that Excaliber brought up on another
thread is that GG's use holsters, while BG's don't use
holsters.

The reason that BG's don't use holsters is so
they can throw their gun away if LEO's are closing in,
and they won't have a holster on when apprehended.

Still, seeing OC without badges is kind of an unorthodox
situation.

SIA

In all fairness, they may have had badges that were not obvious. I'm sure that my friend didn't look too closely.

I don't know that I like the idea of non-uniformed LEO's open carrying as it seems like that would have the potential to alarm the sheeple, and also makes it tougher to ID a potential BG that OC's (not sure that's a real issue as most BG's wouldn't be that brazen).

Of course, I am in favor of OC for all, so maybe its a good idea if all off duty LEO's start OC'ing. Always good to do what we can to acclimate the populace.

Katygunnut wrote:I want to get the thoughts of folks on this board about something my friend experienced yesterday.

A friend of mine was having lunch at Jax grill yesterday (I-10 and Shepherd in Houston) and she saw "a bunch" of guys openly carrying handguns on their hips. She said that one of them looked like my Glock 19, but she is NOT very knowledgable about guns, so this means it was basically any full or mid-size black semi-auto.

She did not see any badges or uniforms and these guys were also not making any attempt to conceal their weapons. The men fit the general description of cops (clean-cut, young, fit, etc), just not in uniform. She asked me about it, and specifically asked whether she should have stayed.

I told her that I would probably assume they were cops, but might ask the manager just to make sure. I'm assuming these guys were either known to management, or would have at least identified themselves when they all walked in with openly carried guns. If the manager said that he had no clue who they were, I would have left, and probably called the police just to make sure everything was OK.

Are LEO's allowed to open carry when they are not in uniform? I have not seen this myself, and it seems like a bad idea on several levels.

Short answer...legally, YES. Maybe not really a good idea and perhaps against some agencies'/departments' policies, but technically legal.

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries
on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club...
...

PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm,
illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a)...
...

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do
not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122,
Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace
officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state,
including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless
of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in
the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while
carrying the weapon;
...

Cobra Medic wrote:If they weren't causing trouble, I wouln't care.

Kinda my opinion too.
I have a buddy that works for Dallas and I asked him one time when we were having breakfast.
He said if CC the badge need not be visible but if OC then the badge needs to be visible near the weapon...I'm assuming on the belt. I don't know if this is a state or departmental statute but thats what he said IIRC. Its been several months.....

Couldda even been some of the FBI guys from downtown office.
My brother's friend worked FBI Houston a while.

Or the guys filming "CHASE" with movie props ... (good show, but they should know better)

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:The reason that BG's don't use holsters is so
they can throw their gun away if LEO's are closing in,
and they won't have a holster on when apprehended.

They also carry concealed to make it harder for the po-po to catch them in the act.

MedicMan218 wrote: Kinda my opinion too.
I have a buddy that works for Dallas and I asked him one time when we were having breakfast.
He said if CC the badge need not be visible but if OC then the badge needs to be visible near the weapon...I'm assuming on the belt. I don't know if this is a state or departmental statute but thats what he said IIRC. Its been several months.....

It may or may not be department policy but it's definitely a very good idea. When I was a cop in New Orleans I was carrying (concealed OWB) in a store in a mall in Jefferson Parish with my badge in my ID wallet in my back pocket. My shirt came up over my gun when I was reaching to get something on a shelf and some lady apparently saw it and called JPSO. Next I knew I had two JP deputies drawing down on me (there was a Sheriff's substation in this particular mall).

I learned from that to always clip my badge on my belt next to my gun, whether OC or CC. That way if anyone saw the gun, they'd also see the badge, and I'd avoid any more of that type of misunderstanding.

EDIT: I ALWAYS clipped my badge to my belt if I carried openly.

Purplehood wrote:I do lunch downtown frequently and see apparent civilians OCing in restaurants all the time. If I am nosey enough I almost always eventually see some sort of badge, but I don't want to be obvious about looking.
If they act like they are doing what they are supposed to be doing, I tend to ignore it.

We see that out here in the boonies, too. If the gun isn't pointing at you, what's the big deal. We either want OC or we don't. Which is it?

Well?

BTW, IANAL and I'm okay with that. Why do so many want to complicate so little?

With the McDonald decision the SCOTUS "incorporated" the 2A as also applying to acts of infringement by the states.
This means that the WHOLE of Texas firearm law now must INCLUDE RECOGNITION of the INCORPORATED 2A protected substantive fundamental right to carry a handgun on or about ones' person for the purpose of self-defense. According to the SCOTUS a state may still restrict concealed carry of a handgun as a licensed privilege, prohibit firearm possession based upon the existence of a felony criminal record, or mental instability, and restrict firearm carry in specified sensitive locations, but criminalization of handgun carry under the provision of Section 46.02 (a) is no longer constitutionally enforceable. Incorporation of the 2A is the FINAL EXCEPTION - added to a long list of existing exceptions - that for all purposes renders 46.02(a) null and void.

You may be seeing a lot more citizens in "civies" publicly wearing holstered handguns in Texas. Not long ago, I saw one in the Golden Corral in Burleson, Texas. He was casually dressed in a golf shirt, slacks, and a nice wool casual sport coat. The handgun - a Glock , I believe - was briefly visible when he hung his coat on the back of his chair and sat down to eat. I didn't see a badge , and there was no call for a "badge check" to be in order. If such a person has a badge - they aren't obliged to produce it unless they are acting in official capacity.

Many are awaiting further "guidance" from the Legislature, the AG, or the courts. Well, The SCOTUS IS THE COURTS, and by way of the majority opinion in McDonald - the Supreme Court has spoken. The Court has affirmed your right to bear arms (including handguns)in case of confrontation. The SCOTUS is not going to publish a comprehensive , concise edition of 2A handgun carry law for Texas that will be available in paper-back any time soon. Texas' notorious 46.02(a) and 46.035(a) are now unconstitutional provisions of law. Don't hold your breath waiting for the Texas Legislature to enact a provision of law expressly "allowing for the carry of a handgun in plain view"-that probably won't happen . The PEOPLE are going to have to lead on this one, and IT WILL HAPPEN -over a span of time because that's how cultural change occurs.

Kythas wrote: It may or may not be department policy but it's definitely a very good idea. When I was a cop in New Orleans I was carrying (concealed OWB) in a store in a mall in Jefferson Parish with my badge in my ID wallet in my back pocket. My shirt came up over my gun when I was reaching to get something on a shelf and some lady apparently saw it and called JPSO. Next I knew I had two JP deputies drawing down on me (there was a Sheriff's substation in this particular mall)..

I was under the impression that Louisiana was an open carry state. Was this prior to that? It's disturbing that they would draw on you...or maybe they thought you were concealing (poorly) without a permit.