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Tyler: Can't carry in parks and rec centers?
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:33 am
by cjlandry
This was posted by someone on another forum. I thought it would be interesting here.
Does Texas allow cities to preempt state law? (Is "preempt" the correct term?)
http://www.kltv.com/global/story.asp?s=6294562
Concealed Handgun Rules Relaxed At City Buildings
Concealed handgun owners in Tyler will find a few more places where they can legally carry their weapons -- any city-owned building. That includes Tyler City Hall where for years, weapons have been banned, but not anymore. This brings the city's ordinances into compliance with state law, which says guns can only be banned in official meetings, like the city council.
"State law requires that people who have a concealed carry permit be allowed to carry those guns in certain areas, this simply makes us consistent with that. We've been in contact with the NRA about this and they are supportive... so we think this is a good move for a city," said Tyler Mayor Joey Seeber.
State laws used to be more restrictive, but were loosened several years ago. It is important to note, you are still not allowed to take any gun into a city park or recreation center.
Seems to me that the local laws would be irrelevant anyway. I don't know. I seldom go to Tyler, and when I do, I don't visit their parks and rec centers.
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:50 am
by dpatterson
How would the City Park or Rec Centers be off limits? Both are City Owned. The park is of course not in a structure.
Can anyone clarify?
DP
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:10 am
by anygunanywhere
I recall a recently where a Harris County man sued the county because county parks were posted. I do not think cities or counties can deny CHL entry. They can post, but it is not binding to CHL.
I am sure more folks will respond.
Anygun
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:25 am
by txinvestigator
dpatterson wrote:How would the City Park or Rec Centers be off limits? Both are City Owned. The park is of course not in a structure.
Can anyone clarify?
DP
They do it by a city ordinance, and will arrest you on the class C misdemeanor and fine you in Municipal Court.
It is an attempt to circumvent state law.
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:28 pm
by cjlandry
I figured they'd probably arrest you for it if they caught you. Quite an inconvenience, and it's easier to simply avoid those places completely.
It is interesting that they can do this without the state doing something about it.
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:08 am
by AG-EE
The state hasn't HAD to do anything about it because all CHLers don't want the hassle of fighting this fight, so we either avoid the place or go unarmed, so nothing comes to light as far as the state is concerned.
Would this be an easy win in court...Yes, I believe so
Do any of us want to be arrested and go to court to fight it...Apparently not
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:29 am
by Right2Carry
txinvestigator wrote:dpatterson wrote:How would the City Park or Rec Centers be off limits? Both are City Owned. The park is of course not in a structure.
Can anyone clarify?
DP
They do it by a city ordinance, and will arrest you on the class C misdemeanor and fine you in Municipal Court.
It is an attempt to circumvent state law.
So is it possible that a city could enact a city ordinance banning concealed carry throughout the city even for CHL holders? They could enact a city ordinance banning the carrying of weapons in all places of business even for CHL holders.
I don't think a city has a right to trump state law with a city ordinance. The city of mansfield also has signs at city parks banning all weapons,but it is not of the 30.06 form. I am thinking this is for people who are illegally carrying.
I guess my point is I just don't understand how a city can make up an ordinance that goes against state law. It appears that the city ordinance thing could really be abused. What if your city created an ordinace that forbade open carry on property that you owned or were under control? See how this thing can get out of hand.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:44 am
by dihappy
Did that appear in a paper?
Somone in Tyler should write the city or the paper and quote Texas Penal Code showing they are wrong.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:04 pm
by Commander
I'm not a great legal authority, but I thought that the Texas Constitution allows only the state legislature to regulate firearms and the carrying of firearms.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:59 pm
by lrb111
S&W6946 wrote:I'm not a great legal authority, but I thought that the Texas Constitution allows only the state legislature to regulate firearms and the carrying of firearms.
Me either, but I don't think one has to know the Texas Constitution before being elected to a municipal office. It appears it isn't necessary after election either.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:29 pm
by txinvestigator
I have do do the yard now, but this evening I'll do some research.
I do know that generally a city can enact an ordinance more restrictive that state law. For example, my city has an orninance against making U-Turns on a bunch of roads, but U-turns are not prohibited by state law.
Cities generally cannot pass laws making a prohibited acts under state law legal. Waaaaay back when we moved from east Texas to Garland, the City of Garland allowed "right turn on red after stop". HOwever, state law did NOT allow that. There was much hoopla about it, but then there is something about "home rule" cities being able to go against state law.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:50 pm
by seamusTX
LGC §229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition,
or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has
under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed for personal
or national defense, law enforcement, or another lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the limits of the
municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a business, or uses
at a business under the municipality's fire code, zoning ordinance, or
land-use regulations as long as the code, ordinance, or regulations are
not used to circumvent the intent of Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5)
of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an insurrection, riot,
or natural disaster if the municipality finds the regulations necessary to
protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of explosives to protect
public health and safety, except that 25 pounds or less of black powder
for each private residence and 50 pounds or less of black powder for
each retail dealer are not subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a
person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H,
Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental
body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic
event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not apply if the
firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a
lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event and the firearm is of the
type commonly used in the activity.
The legal language is pretty clumsy, but it has been hashed over many times by people smarter than me. A county or city can not prohibit carry by CHL holders.
The city where I live is one of many that tries. I have never heard of anyone being arrested under the city ordinance.
- Jim
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:22 pm
by MTICop
Right2Carry wrote:txinvestigator wrote:dpatterson wrote:How would the City Park or Rec Centers be off limits? Both are City Owned. The park is of course not in a structure.
Can anyone clarify?
DP
They do it by a city ordinance, and will arrest you on the class C misdemeanor and fine you in Municipal Court.
It is an attempt to circumvent state law.
So is it possible that a city could enact a city ordinance banning concealed carry throughout the city even for CHL holders? They could enact a city ordinance banning the carrying of weapons in all places of business even for CHL holders.
I don't think a city has a right to trump state law with a city ordinance. The city of mansfield also has signs at city parks banning all weapons,but it is not of the 30.06 form. I am thinking this is for people who are illegally carrying.
I guess my point is I just don't understand how a city can make up an ordinance that goes against state law. It appears that the city ordinance thing could really be abused. What if your city created an ordinace that forbade open carry on property that you owned or were under control? See how this thing can get out of hand.
I see this type of thing all the time in the Air Force. Not with relation to guns but things in general. We are given latitude to "enhance" the regulations we follow but can't take away from them. I would think cities could do that as well so long as they are "enhancing" and not detracting from any law. It think that's where this becomes a "gray area" since it would take a court decision to determine if it violated the constitution with regards to 2A. I may be way off base here but that's my $.02[/quote]
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:40 pm
by txinvestigator
seamusTX wrote:LGC §229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition,
or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has
under another law to:
((6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a
person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H,
Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental
body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic
event.
- Jim
BINGO! Great find Jim. (saved me some work too)
There it is in black and white.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:02 pm
by seamusTX
txinvestigator wrote:BINGO! Great find Jim. (saved me some work too)
Thanks. I just have the CHL manual saved on my PC.
- Jim