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I attended the [Pre-paid legal service] meeting last night at the American Legion Hall in Willis. I learned a few things and they served a good fajita dinner...all for $15. The hall was crowded and I would guess 200+ people attended.

At the end of the presentation, I went to the back of the hall to use the little boy's room and I saw it....the nasty 51% sign. It was on the door leading into a small bar area. There was nothing on the front door or any mention of this restriction by the [Pre-paid legal service] people. I checked the TABC website and their license is "RED". There were MANY people armed in the room, me included. There were lots of Hawaiian shirts, vests, light weight jackets (warm outside), cargo pants, untucked shirts and every other mode of concealment. The bar had a window to the big hall and they were selling beer to people in the meeting. This is a big place. They do bingo here on weekends. I am of the belief that the entire hall is restricted. What do ya'll think?

I think there was a ton of stupid on the part of [pre-paid legal] for holding a CC meeting in a location that is statutorily off limits.
It's lucky the PoPo didn't get wind of it.

I suggest you phone [pre-paid legal] and inform them of your observation with a strong admonishment not to put their customers in such a position. It would be quite expensive for them to have to defend 200+ people for a mistake that [pre-paid legal] helped create.

Sounds like they were trying get a new crop of customers that would need their services due violating the 51% rule.

All in all, pretty dumb mistake by a legal group wanting to defend people on CHL related violations.

This will sounds snippy and snide, but it does beg the question about how well they do research. That is a crazy bad call on their part. It is OUR responsibility to check, but man, if I can't trust a firearms related provider (of any kind) to check any better than that......

I hear the voice of the driving instructor from the Agent Cody Banks movie (I have kids, as a disclaimer), Fail. Fail! FAIL!

It was on the door leading into a small bar area.

doesn't this mean bar is off limits not whole building

suthdj wrote:

It was on the door leading into a small bar area.

doesn't this mean bar is off limits not whole building

I have sent an email to [Pre-paid legal service] to ask their opinion. It seems to some of the Instructors on this forum that the entire premises would be included. I believe since the bar was selling beer to people outside the bar in the main hall, the 51% sign would include the entire premises.

howdy wrote:

suthdj wrote:

It was on the door leading into a small bar area.

doesn't this mean bar is off limits not whole building

I have sent an email to [Pre-paid legal service] to ask their opinion. It seems to some of the Instructors on this forum that the entire premises would be included. I believe since the bar was selling beer to people outside the bar in the main hall, the 51% sign would include the entire premises.

Looks to me like the entire premises is licensed and RED.
If the license was issued to someone other than the owner, I'd think maybe the bar was a separate business and posting the entrance to the bar and not the entrance to the building would be proper.

This is just a guess, since I've never been to this location...

License #: BG247261
Trade Name: C. M. JOSLIN POST NO. 618 THE AMERICAN LEGION DEPARTMENT OF TEXA
Owner: C. M. JOSLIN POST NO. 618 THE AMERICAN L
Location Address:
13054 FM 1097 EAST
WILLIS , TX 773785548
Mailing Address:
PO BOX 554
WILLIS , TX 773781246
County: Montgomery Orig. Issue Date: 8/14/1989
Status: Current Exp. Date: 8/13/2014
Wine Percent: 17
Location Phone No.: 9368565224

Subordinates:
Related To: Gun Sign: RED
Discipline Dates
Complaint # Status Violation Date Code Violation Description Docket # Disposition Fine Amt Paid Amt Paid Date Begin Date End Date
386732 Closed 6/14/1998 781 Misc. Violations A579752 Dismissed w/o Prejudice 9/20/2005
444038 Closed 2/27/1998 783 Place or Manner, Misc. Written Warning

[pre-paid legal] is not the only party making boneheaded decisions.

There was a Northwest Houston "Friends of the NRA" fundraising banquet held last year in -- you guessed it -- a 51% red sign saloon.

So how could you be prosecuted without notification? No sign means no notification. I assume sign has to be at the entrance and not in the back room somewhere.

rotor wrote:So how could you be prosecuted without notification? No sign means no notification. I assume sign has to be at the entrance and not in the back room somewhere.

You only have a 'defense from prosecution' if no sign is posted. It is not a get out of jail free card. IN this case there WAS a sign, but your defense in court would need to be that it was not properly displayed so you failed to receive proper notification.

Keith B wrote:

rotor wrote:So how could you be prosecuted without notification? No sign means no notification. I assume sign has to be at the entrance and not in the back room somewhere.

You only have a 'defense from prosecution' if no sign is posted. It is not a get out of jail free card. IN this case there WAS a sign, but your defense in court would need to be that it was not properly displayed so you failed to receive proper notification.

Of course that means you would have already been arrested, spent the night in jail, and had to pay for bond. Plus you now have a "rap sheet."

Is this one of those situations where something is prohibited unless allowed by the property owner?

As a property owner, I should be able to allow anyone that I want to carry a weapon on the property and the government should have nothing that they can say about it.

NavyVet1959 wrote:Is this one of those situations where something is prohibited unless allowed by the property owner?

As a property owner, I should be able to allow anyone that I want to carry a weapon on the property and the government should have nothing that they can say about it.

51% locations do not work that way, even if you wanted a bar full of armed patrons it is off limits to CHL by law.

30.06 signs do work that way, as owner you have the choice to post or not, same with blue signs, they can still post a 30.06.

Jaguar wrote:51% locations do not work that way, even if you wanted a bar full of armed patrons it is off limits to CHL by law.

30.06 signs do work that way, as owner you have the choice to post or not, same with blue signs, they can still post a 30.06.

Compounding the issue is that there is also the TABC administrative regulations that some people assume to be laws that affect firearm owners. Also, some of the TABC signs are not exactly accurate.

For example, a person can legally carry a long gun into a place licensed to sell for off-premises consumption despite this sign being displayed:

"The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony with a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a fine not to exceed $10,000."

https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publicatio ... eapons.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From my discussions with the TABC, they admitted that this only covers people without a CHL who carry a handgun concealed into the store. Now, the TABC has a rule that says that a store cannot allow a person to carry a firearm into their store (except for CHL holders carrying concealed handguns), but the penalty is on the store, not the person carrying the firearm. There are some other exceptions in there also, so it muddles the issue like with most laws or regulations. If they required the signs to be accurate, they would be so long and the text would be so small that no one would ever read them.

NavyVet1959 wrote:

Jaguar wrote:51% locations do not work that way, even if you wanted a bar full of armed patrons it is off limits to CHL by law.

30.06 signs do work that way, as owner you have the choice to post or not, same with blue signs, they can still post a 30.06.

Compounding the issue is that there is also the TABC administrative regulations that some people assume to be laws that affect firearm owners. Also, some of the TABC signs are not exactly accurate.

For example, a person can legally carry a long gun into a place licensed to sell for off-premises consumption despite this sign being displayed:

"The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony with a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a fine not to exceed $10,000."

https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publicatio ... eapons.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From my discussions with the TABC, they admitted that this only covers people without a CHL who carry a handgun concealed into the store. Now, the TABC has a rule that says that a store cannot allow a person to carry a firearm into their store (except for CHL holders carrying concealed handguns), but the penalty is on the store, not the person carrying the firearm. There are some other exceptions in there also, so it muddles the issue like with most laws or regulations. If they required the signs to be accurate, they would be so long and the text would be so small that no one would ever read them.

Flypaper.

The kind that makes nobody safer except criminals. Liberty weeps.