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Has anyone ever successfully convinced their employer, who has “no guns, even for CHLs” stated in the employee handbook, to allow licensed concealed carry on their premises? Either that, or at least a good template of a letter that includes the basic points (e.g. signs can’t protect anyone, CHLs are law-abiding, etc.)

Our company specifically prohibits concealed-carry on-premises even for CHLs. I was thinking about putting a letter in their suggestion box asking them to remove the CHL-specific restriction. I figured that if someone else has already put such a letter together, why start from scratch?

I have not tried and my employer has similar policies as to yours. But beware the rule of unintended consequences.

Some employers might think, eh, just a query from an employee. They restate the handbook rules and it dies right there.
However, I could also see some employer trying to ferret out whomever submitted the query. It all depends on how hard they look as to whether they might find out. You know your employer, how might they react?

I'd treat it like chess; think about 4-10 moves out about what your employer's response might be. It's like telling a business their "No Guns" sign is not valid....so they either leave it alone or they get someone who knows what a 30.06 sign is and posts that.

Hope it works for you, just know that you might poison the well in the process.

Regards,
LabRat

Might be an insurance requirement for his business. You can't win them all.

Mine requires us to unload and use a lock box in our vehicle if we have one on their property. This is their version of complying with the parking lot laws. Mind you this is only allowed in the texas locations. All other states is a no go.

The place I retired from has flammable gases,liquids,high pressure steam, very corossive liquids ,pressure vessels 13000 volt wiring ect. some of it so bad being shot at and missed could be more dangerous than shot at and hit. I would not have liked some of my fellow operators armed. I would have liked a lock box type gun locker in the clock alley so as to be armed in the parking lot in the middle of the night after working 16 hrs and going to my truck at 2 am.

LabRat wrote:I have not tried and my employer has similar policies as to yours. But beware the rule of unintended consequences.

Some employers might think, eh, just a query from an employee. They restate the handbook rules and it dies right there.
However, I could also see some employer trying to ferret out whomever submitted the query. It all depends on how hard they look as to whether they might find out. You know your employer, how might they react?

I'd treat it like chess; think about 4-10 moves out about what your employer's response might be. It's like telling a business their "No Guns" sign is not valid....so they either leave it alone or they get someone who knows what a 30.06 sign is and posts that.

Hope it works for you, just know that you might poison the well in the process.

Regards,
LabRat

I hate to be negative, but

What would I do if my company's handbook said "no guns, even chls" in it? I'd carry away. It's not legal written notice so it does not apply to me. Could the company still punish me in some way if they find out? Sure, but I don't go around telling people I carry and it's always concealed. Your risk to take either way, but I'd never bring it up.

I have posted in these forums on numerous occasions a particular piece of whimsy authored by a friend who posts online under the screen name "Tweed Ring".

Before one starts rocking the boat you should at least make an informed and thoughtful decision on whether it is important enough to you to risk your continued employment.

"Tweed Ring" is very active in behind-the-scenes politics and who is now retired after 30+ years in HR. He created "Tweed's Rules for Employment." It's a tongue-in-cheek list of things to avoid in the workplace. The issue in large organizations is once the topic of firearms is raised, there is intense pressure on HR to "do something". That "something" often turns out to be a negative event for the employee in question as well as all firearm supporters in that workplace.

Tweed's Rules for Employment are as follows:

1. I do not own a gun, and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.
2. I do not want to own a gun and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.
3. I don't want to talk to anyone who owns a gun, and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.
4. If someone is talking about guns, I shall walk away, and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.
5. My hobbies are very interesting and entertaining, but, I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.
6. The hobbies of my significant other, (if any) and children (if any) are very interesting and entertaining and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.

Now, there are employees in this world who have the benefit of working under a labor agreement or an iron-clad signed employment contract. There are also employees who work in a small business for their father, or their brother-in-law, or their best friend. Such employees may have the freedom to poke this particular beehive with a stick without encountering adverse results.

For the rest of us, Texas has the concept called "employment at will". Now, I can respect someone's choices on either side of this equation. If a person needs their job to support their family and is unwilling to risk everything on the issue of firearms in the workplace, I certainly understand. If a different person feels strongly about their rights to carry firearms, feels confident in their ability to earn a living, and wants to go to the mat on this issue, they have my blessings and support as well.

However, we should all at least evaluate the options with knowledge of the risks involved so that we are making such an important choice as an informed decision.

LabRat wrote:Hope it works for you, just know that you might poison the well in the process.

I thought about that, but I’m not sure what the downside could be. We’re already prohibited from carrying in the building, and Texas law allows me to keep my gun in my car. I had intended to submit my suggestion anonymously just to protect myself from that possible “ferreting”, but other than that, I’m not sure what else they could do. Am I missing something?

rotor wrote:Might be an insurance requirement for his business. You can't win them all.

This idea is often floated as the reason a business would post, but I personally do not see that. For example, I just went through the annual renewal of all the insurance policies on my job, were I am directly responsible for purchasing insurance where the premiums total in the millions each year. I have been handling this area of the company for years. Never have I had an underwriter or broker even ask the question about our firearms policy in the workplace. Never..

However, when I look at this from a corporate risk management viewpoint, it is an entirely different picture. Let's say Johnny the Robber tries to rob our business and one of my employees shoots him. There is certainly risk of poor Johnny the Robber's surviving relatives suing because one of my employees shot him in self defense. I am not primarily concerned with that risk.

Also, if I forbid firearms in the workplace and a poor misguided Yute undertakes a gibsmedat performance that results in the death of one of my employees, I am not going to be liable for the wrongful actions of a criminal. Worst case scenario is the death gets handled within the workers compensation system places which has definite limits on the size of the loss due to a workplace death.

Instead, if as allowed by company policy I have one of my employees attempt to shoot poor Johnny the Robber, and instead this employee hits and kills the mother of 4 who happened to be driving by at that instant in time, that is a horrible case that is going to cost tens of millions of dollars.

Looking solely at economics and our current legal system (and not from a human right to self defense perspective), it is a no-brainer. Every employer should safeguard the catastrophic scenario of an innocent bystander getting killed by an employee who is obeying company policy. Every employer.

Maybe you aren't aware of the kinds of judgments that are being awarded. Recently at work while preparing for our annual renewal, I reviewed an analysis of jury awards in my industry for the previous 24 months. For example, I reviewed just 12 verdicts that totaled over $900 million with the largest jury verdict being $281 million.

If you want to blame someone for large employers not being willing to let people carry, blame the plaintiff's bar.

Wes wrote:What would I do if my company's handbook said "no guns, even chls" in it? I'd carry away. It's not legal written notice so it does not apply to me. Could the company still punish me in some way if they find out? Sure, but I don't go around telling people I carry and it's always concealed. Your risk to take either way, but I'd never bring it up.

Wes wrote:What would I do if my company's handbook said "no guns, even chls" in it? I'd carry away. It's not legal written notice so it does not apply to me.

I thought that for an employee who signs a statement stating they have read the company handbook, that statement in the handbook _does_ serve as “legal written notice”, meaning it would be illegal for employees to carry; they don’t have to post 30.06 (which they haven’t). Is that incorrect?

Punishment? You bet. Your fired on the spot, no ifs ands or buts. At some point in your employment life you will have gotten to the point where your current job is worth retiring from. When your fired much of that is history. Its all about the consequences for choices made.
Mike

Wes wrote:What would I do if my company's handbook said "no guns, even chls" in it? I'd carry away. It's not legal written notice so it does not apply to me. Could the company still punish me in some way if they find out? Sure, but I don't go around telling people I carry and it's always concealed. Your risk to take either way, but I'd never bring it up.

mloamiller wrote:

LabRat wrote:Hope it works for you, just know that you might poison the well in the process.

I thought about that, but I’m not sure what the downside could be. We’re already prohibited from carrying in the building, and Texas law allows me to keep my gun in my car. I had intended to submit my suggestion anonymously just to protect myself from that possible “ferreting”, but other than that, I’m not sure what else they could do. Am I missing something?

There actually is a downside.

I think, but not sure if it was on this board or another one, where someone's employer starting asking employees if they had a CHL. The threat, real or implied, was that if you lie to us and say you don't or we find out somehow that you do have a CHL and don't tell us, you will be terminated.

It's not just some government officials, journalists and billionaire hacks that want to relieve you of your right to defend yourself, but some employers can be just as rabid...depends on the politics of the company. I'm just saying to think about the best and worst things that might happen....reality will be somewhere in the middle or even worse than you thought.

Just my 2 cents.

LabRat

My situation is a little different from most. I work for a city government. Therefore any Joe CHL off the street can carry inside my building and even walk in my office. But I can NOT because it is written in our city directives that no handguns for city employees except police. Now I can leave my gun in a secured vehicle in the parking lot, but can't carry on my person while "on the clock". Many guys at my office have there CHLs and many know who do or don't. In fact, a couple of the "big bosses" have theirs. Because it is a city wide directive, it would have to go to the city council to be voted on to allow city employees to carry. That ain't gonna happen! I feel I "could" carry legally, but be fired if caught. I have 22 years in already and plan on retiring at 30, so for now, I'm not rocking the boat. It just frustrates me that anyone with a CHL can carry in my office, but I can't!