TexasCHLforum.com

Hello Everyone. I have been a forum watcher for many many months after getting my CHL. Yesterday I had a bad bad experience and wanted to see or get some of your thoughts.

My wife and I have been married for about 6 months and are doing a "Big Wedding" since we did a courthouse wedding. As part of that we both went out and bought some stuff at Sam Moon. This place is like a funky cheap jewelry and bag shop among many others. Personally I didn't want to go but the wife asked so we went. Since we both had left work early for a doctors appointment for me I didn't change into my pants with my holster. I was wearing my work attire and she was in her scrubs. In cases like this I place my gun in my pocket that I keep in my car. I also untuck my shirt which I am pretty large in (lost 100 pounds in last 6 months due to bariatric surgery).

As we bought our things I had paid for along with the receipt in my bag. I was walking out the door and had seen a security guard watching me while we left the cash registers and telling us to have a good night. I walked past the door with my wife a few feet behind me. According to her I set the sensor off and I continued walking behind me I heard "SIR STOP I WANT TO SEE IN YOUR BAG". Now I didn't know which sir was being called for as I was already outside but my wife said my name and I kept walking. I turned around and said I did nothing wrong I am not stopping. I continued walking to my car with the guy telling me to turn around and show him my bag. I again refused and the security guard kept coming. I turned around put my hands up and said "STOP LEAVE ME ALONE" to which he said show me your bag sir. I again refused and walked he pulled his handcuffs out and said sir don't make me do this I will handcuff you. My reply at that point was "You touch me and I will drop you." I got into my car and he refused to let me leave by closing my door. I told him to move and kept trying to leave he stayed there and told me if I touch him he will pepper spray me. I again told him to move from blocking my door. He refused I called Police Dept. and told them this guy is threatening me and not letting me leave I need the police. By this time the guy stepped a few feet forward of the door. I was able to back up a little and then he pushed into my door some. I had enough room to move the car forward to avoid the car parked in front of me with spaces open to my left to leave in. My intent was to leave the area and wait for SAPD to show up. After asking him to move one more time I put the car in drive and took off forward and at this point he pepper sprayed me and my wife (who is in the car passenger seat).

I get away some before my eyes close up from the spray. As such I call 911 and request police again and EMS. My wife completely embarrassed is crying upset and when EMS gets there refuses their treatment. I on the other hand having a good amount of it in my eyes request them to flush my eyes out. My question is how does everyone else handle this? SAPD is looking into assault charges but stated he may have acted within the law and after searching for it the last few hours found that the shopkeeper privilege. Interesting little rule that basically states that "Sec. 124.001. DETENTION. A person who reasonably believes that another has stolen or is attempting to steal property is privileged to detain that person in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time to investigate ownership of the property."

The term that is funny is "reasonable belief"... Now putting on my super googler hat and looking at the things I can find, He had to have a belief I stole something. In two cases I could find it seems kind of hard to prove that reasonable part. For example: In Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. v. Cockrell, Karl the Loss Prevention person stated that Cockrell was acting suspicious and at one point walked slowly through an isle at which point the Loss Prevention said he "saw a bulge". Now that led to them putting this guy in a room and stripping to show he didn't have anything and of course he didn't. The jury and appeals court agreed there was no reasonable reason to say he did something. In another case H.E. Butt Grocery Co. v. Saldivar an employee complained that a person took a tag off of sunglasses and took them with the security guard and a manager being told by the clerk of those facts, the court said there was no reasonable belief again because no one could say that she stole the material (clerk couldn't be found and didn't testify at trial).

To me it would seem to establish that "you reasonably believe" I did something you have to witness it. I haven't gotten the police report or anything yet. The police officer checked my bag after I offered and he found that a sensor on one of the things I bought but found the item on the receipt showing we had paid for it. His comment was "I bet this was it. " At which point the other officers all told me I should just stop and show my bag to move on. Which I reply with "Why I didn't do anything wrong. I purchased my stuff." Wife is upset because of what happened I am beyond upset with what happened and honestly the fact that they pepper sprayed her is beyond me why assault wasn't filled against this guy for him getting my wife. SAPD sent it to homicide for them to investigate.

Whatever happened to seeing someone conceal something and try to not pay for it BEFORE you have that belief they stole something. Sense when did those anti-theft sensors make you a suspect when they go off all the time from other stores leaving security strips in clothes or even the store themselves forgetting to deactivate their own stuff. My father and Mother (both LEO) completely upset and even themselves were going off about it saying Sam Moon is responsible to make sure they deactivated it and if they didn't they themselves contributed into this case.
Thoughts?
(I am not a laywer and I didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night) Anyone here think I should sue or just walk away.

I think you could have saved yourself and everyone else involved a whole lot of trouble by stopping and resolving the situation by showing the items in your bag and the receipt for them to the security guard.

That's what I do on the infrequent occasions when the door sensor trips as I'm leaving, and I haven't been pepper sprayed or had to call the police yet.

Not to sound like the over zealots of OC style... Why should one prove that they have done nothing wrong? At what point does the private citizen get the chance to say "take it to the cops to settle if you feel this was a crime?" That's one reasons for the police is to enforce the law of the land.

It's convenient to let them X-RAY me going through an airport and me not fight it. It's easier to just the past before we had CHL to not have CHL and fight for that right/respect (my term of respect is merely to the fact of the 2A right). To me we the people make the government and if we the people make the government then part of the private citizen powers we give others will then be used by the government at some point because "we went with it before". Sure I can stop and show the person my bag as to prove my innocence (guilty as opposed to not-guilty) but why? What about when the guy at the door says "I believe you stole something" takes a woman in the back office and has her pull off her clothes so he can now see her naked body or a female checking out a hot guy doing the same thing? Not saying it should get out of hand and I need to run into every store with my AR-15 to prove a point scare the general population. There is no reason in my eyes that a private citizen has more detain power than a police officer. If you believe I did something wrong (meeting the requirements of theft) then you should need to prove that to the police and then me to the police I didn't and if I don't win I go for the ride. I should have the ability to go on my marry little way.

Excaliber wrote:I think you could have saved yourself and everyone else involved a whole lot of trouble by stopping and resolving the situation by showing the items in your bag and the receipt for them to the security guard.

That's what I do on the infrequent occasions when the door sensor trips as I'm leaving, and I haven't been pepper sprayed or had to call the police yet.

When the sensor alarm went off, I would hope you were aware enough to hear it. It would have taken less than 10 seconds to resolve this in the store, but you escalated the situation to the point where people got hurt (pepper sprayed). When I shop at Fry's, they have to go through your bag and check your receipt before you exit the store. I do not like it, but I know that is the policy.

All that being said, it was a tad out of line for the LPO to threaten detention and then prevent you from leaving. He did in effect place you under arrest.

My bag went off on the way out of Wal-Mart a few weeks ago. I stopped, turned around and said as loud as I could while pointing at the guy behind me "IT WAS HIM, ARREST THAT MAN". We both got a good laugh as I showed the 70 year old greeter my bag and receipt. 15 seconds later I was heading to my truck. If she had pepper sprayed me things probably would have deteriorated quickly when I started blindly shooting in all directions trying to defend myself from this attacking grandma. Imagine the chaos!

That guy was probably just like the rest of us. Working for a living to feed his family. I would have showed him my bag and thanked him for working. He could have been sitting home collecting welfare or worse, another thug out robbing people.

Welcome to the forum.

Your first reaction should be gracious. We all make mistakes.

The fact that the sensor went off should satisfy the reasonable suspicion requirement. You were provocative & exposed all involved, including your wife to a dangerous situation of your making.

ddstuder wrote:

Excaliber wrote:I think you could have saved yourself and everyone else involved a whole lot of trouble by stopping and resolving the situation by showing the items in your bag and the receipt for them to the security guard.

That's what I do on the infrequent occasions when the door sensor trips as I'm leaving, and I haven't been pepper sprayed or had to call the police yet.

When the sensor alarm went off, I would hope you were aware enough to hear it. It would have taken less than 10 seconds to resolve this in the store, but you escalated the situation to the point where people got hurt (pepper sprayed). When I shop at Fry's, they have to go through your bag and check your receipt before you exit the store. I do not like it, but I know that is the policy.

I have to agree as well. We shop at Sam's alot, and are stopped every time at the door, while someone verifies that what's on the receipt is what's in the shopping cart, and nothing more. To me that's valid store policy to cut down on shoplifting.

Stopping and letting the security guard go through the bag, would have resulted in a quick deescalation in an incident that almost got out of control. And no harm, no foul.

We do Costco, which has the same policy. Since every person leaving has their receipt and basket scanned, it's hard to feel singled out. I've also set off an alarm at Wal*Mart and Home Depot... at Wally I lef them look in the bag and receipt (older gent also), Homies just waved me on out.

Descalation is the name of the game.

If you feel put on, don't return to the store and let them know why. I won't go into Sprouts since they went 30.06 or into Whole Foods which I think was 30.06 from opening. Always try to be the one in control.

Regards,

Jeff B.

First, welcome to the forum.

I had a situation where a Walmart greeter wanted to see my receipt for an item that was too large for a bag. He saw me leave the cash register to come the entrance where he was standing. I politely objected and told him he saw me come directly from the cash register and that this isn't Sam's where my membership agreement requires me to show a receipt. He grabbed my cart and wouldn't let me leave which is why I then politely asked for a manger and kept insisting until I had to turn around and ask the nearest cashier for a manager. I was tired and like you didn't like having to prove my innocence. But I didn't let the situation escalate. A manager came over and apologized to me and I left.

This is where I think you might want to rethink your actions. As CHL holders, if at all possible, we need to try and keep a situation from escalating. From what you wrote, he called you sir each time and you kept going. He may have been firm but it sounds like he was courteous to you when asking you to show him the bag. I completely understand your frustration but once the theft alarm went off, I would think the security guard was reasonable in asking to see what was in your bag. But I also think he over-reacted with the pepper spray especially since he used it in an enclosed space of a car and hit someone who was not involved.

Instead of filing a lawsuit, I would contact the local and corporate management of the store and the security company and file a complaint with all three. But with respect I would suggest that next time you at least stop and answer the person and de-escalate the situation.

AlphaBeta wrote: "Sec. 124.001. DETENTION. A person who reasonably believes that another has stolen or is attempting to steal property is privileged to detain that person in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time to investigate ownership of the property."

You basically answered your own question here. The anti-theft device in the bag gave the security person reasonable belief that there might be an item that had not been paid for and the anti-theft device deactivated. IMO he was well within his rights to try and detain you in a reasonable manner. Your refusal to cooperate could have been construed as additional reason that you had something to hide, so it only escalated the situation.

As many have said, if you have nothing to hide, then stop, let them take a quick look and be on your way. Best bet is to just let this one be a lesson and move on.

My impression when reading your story is that you deliberately escalated the situation rather than choosing to resolve it.

This is one of those stories that makes me respect security guards so much more. They already tolerate so much "rentacop" hate and then they have to do so much just to do their job.

Let the pepper spray be a good lesson.

Your response "You touch me and I will drop you." to a security guard because you set off a door alarm is a little disturbing don't you think? You need to resolve some of your anger issues before you get into some serious trouble.

OK folks. Keep this business like and no personal attacks.