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This is going to a little rant about training.

With current events being what they are I have recently been in several discussions in person, at the range and in other social media regarding training and CC. Some are falling victim to the "no training = no CC" mentality.

I have talked to many people who are already gun owners and proficient shooters that say they need more "formal" training before they will pursue LTC which always puzzles me. Some already have LTC and refuse to carry without more "formal" training.

I have spent time at the range with these people and like myself they are what you might consider to be "self-taught", which for me means at some point I have been shown the basics of handgun marksmanship by a friend or relative in a non formal setting and/or learned somethings on my own and I have been shooting for years. One or two hours of free instruction for a lifetime of benefit. Teach a man to fish....... Combine that with whatever information or tips from video/internet/youtube/book instructions you might pickup along the way and you have more than enough to safely and effectively CC. (If you are doing it the same way the pro's do it and are getting the desired results, do you really need someone else to tell you you're doing it right?)

I sincerely think that they are definitely lacking something, is not skill or proficiency, it's something but it's not something that you can buy with a training class or any tactical gadget. It is the PROPER MINDSET-the warrior spirit, the survivor mentality, situational awareness, the acceptance that there is evil in the world and acceptance of personal responsibility to defend against it, general self-confidence and courage. Either you are born with it or without it. Fortunately these things, if you aren't born with them, can be developed over time but there is no magic talisman, training or gadget that you can buy to attain it. I have never taking formal training beyond LA and TX CHL/LTC classes which really don't teach a skill only test some basic level of proficiency yet I possess (IMHO) the proper mindset and skills.

The other problem is they think "formal" training is going to offer them something that it just can't deliver, some 100% guaranteed survival or victory in stress situation. There is no magic talisman you can buy, amount of training, special gear or gadget to make that happen.

I have gained more from actually CCing than anything else. It is a transformative process that is extremely benefical on so many levels. But it is a process that happens by doing it not just a taking a class and your'e done thing. (EDC system is a trial and error process)

The other thing they confuse is practice vs training. Practice is doing what you learned and creating muscle memory. Training is the active instruction from another person and guidance, or learning something new.

I am not saying don't take classes or formal training. The path to enlightenment is a continuous process and one should never stop trying to improve but there are many paths you can take! Formal training is not the only way! And you don't have to achieve mastery before you carry. Mastery can take a lifetime! (and Mastery will take some training but mostly practice).

I PRACTICE often as well but PRACTICE is not TRAINING. There is not someone teaching me new things and guiding me. At somepoint there is a diminishing return on TRAINING, as you get further from the basics. I think advanced tactics while worth learning are not the most applicable to most situations. I believe in the K.I.S.S. principle and it's because under stress as a non-operator, non-ninja, non-combat vet that's all your gonna be able to do at best.

And are you practicing on a static target not shooting back or in a stress situation with bullets coming back at you? The reality is there is more to CC than marksmanship, its what you do under stress or making the right decision to pull the trigger in the first place. No one can teach combat experience. Even training scenarios, while good aren't the same as the real thing.

We should never stop improving but you are doing yourself a disservice by going about unarmed waiting until you achieve some training holy grail. If you have basic marksmanship and the proper mindset -the warrior spirit, the survivor mentality, situational awareness, the acceptance that there is evil in the world and acceptance of personal responsibility to defend against it, general self-confidence and courage you have all you need to effectively defend yourself and not risk others any more than LEO's risk the general population by doing so. An understanding of the the Mindset, Tactics, Skill, Gear mantra and when stuff happens, "get off the X" , take cover, shooting while moving is also beneficial.Start somewhere and continue to improve. You can try to achieve the training holy grail but in the mean time CARRY!

ETA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tlGRfAzrso

I don't think a person can have too much training. I have learned many valuable techniques and tactics that I would never have learned on my own and I strongly encourage anyone who carries to seek out respected instructors and courses.

That being said, anyone who uses lack of formal training as an excuse not to carry, is probably just looking for an excuse not to carry. After all, that person is really saying "I'm not competent to carry a handgun" and who is going to argue with that. If he really believes he needs more training and really is serious about carrying a gun, he would go get more training and be done with it.

To many, the use of the word training means preparation and not just formal education..... ie a runner training for a marathon. Most of the people I know who own or carry a gun could stand some additional training.

Great post LSUTiger!!

I agree, there is no amount of training, or even practice for that matter, that will transform someone who doesn't have the mindset that they may actually have to use the training/practice in a life or death situation. Training and practice can make you proficient with shooting, but it won't give you that edge that is required when it's do or die time. I'll even go further with that, in that, there are several LEO's who will "freeze up" at that critical moment, no matter how much training, instruction and practice they get, because there is no way to accurately simulate a situation that the trainee doesn't know that it's a simulation. And mind set can't be taught. I was fortunate in that I never had to fire my gun while on duty, but I did surprise even myself when I had to draw it, and did so without thinking about it.

I constantly play the " what if" game with myself when out in public, or even at home and run through scenarios in my mind. I hope that I never have to make a life or death decision, but I feel that if the time comes, I will act quickly and effectively.

I recently acquired my first AR, I have received no actual training on it, and I don't feel proficient enough for it to be my "go to" yet, but, I am looking at some formal training and then lots of practice to hone my skills. However, if it was all i had, I have no doubt that I could do whatever is necessary to defend myself/family etc..

Thanks for the post, very thought provoking and I think that there are a lot of people who look at LTC as something to have, rather than the thought process of possibly having to kill or be killed.

The path each of us takes through this life is unique. Same with the path to the armed lifestyle. LSUTiger, it seems that your path included a bit of training, a bunch of practicing, a solid "warrior" mindset, and an ample amount of self-confidence. You make good points about mindset, and I agree that some folks are simply not turned that direction, so to speak. From my perspective, the other key element that seems lacking to some degree in the subjects you refer to is the requisite level of self-confidence. Your self-confidence is likely bolstered by validation that your practiced skills and decision-making are in line with how "professionals" do things -- and I imagine some of that validation is related to your active membership on this forum. For whatever reason, the folks you mention don't presently feel confident in either their abilities or their decision-making, and many of them may seek training as a means to enhance their confidence to some degree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them seeking training -- it may simply be part of their journey.

Seemingly like you, I came into the armed lifestyle largely due to a proper mindset and ample self-confidence, but little formal training. I continue to hone associated skill-sets through training and practice as often as possible, and recommend that others do the same, but this skill-set enhancement has very little to do with mind-set and only an incremental effect on self-confidence.

Middle Age Russ wrote:The path each of us takes through this life is unique. Same with the path to the armed lifestyle. LSUTiger, it seems that your path included a bit of training, a bunch of practicing, a solid "warrior" mindset, and an ample amount of self-confidence. You make good points about mindset, and I agree that some folks are simply not turned that direction, so to speak. From my perspective, the other key element that seems lacking to some degree in the subjects you refer to is the requisite level of self-confidence. Your self-confidence is likely bolstered by validation that your practiced skills and decision-making are in line with how "professionals" do things -- and I imagine some of that validation is related to your active membership on this forum. For whatever reason, the folks you mention don't presently feel confident in either their abilities or their decision-making, and many of them may seek training as a means to enhance their confidence to some degree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them seeking training -- it may simply be part of their journey.

Seemingly like you, I came into the armed lifestyle largely due to a proper mindset and ample self-confidence, but little formal training. I continue to hone associated skill-sets through training and practice as often as possible, and recommend that others do the same, but this skill-set enhancement has very little to do with mind-set and only an incremental effect on self-confidence.

Perhaps you misunderstand my post??? Or I misunderstood your reply ???

When self proclaimed "gun guys" who purport to be concerned with self defense issues demonstrate a reasonable degree of proficiency and knowledge I don't know what else causes their hesitation or lack of commitment to carrying besides wrong mindset (or haven't fully developed the right one or just don't want to carry). How much skill set enhancement is enough to say OK, I can CC now!? Also, if you said skill enhancement would greatly increase confidence I would agree, but you kind of said not so much.

As mentioned in my post, I don't have any problems with those who want training. Completely new shooters would benefit the most and reduce the learning curve. The more the better, become a James Yeager certified tactical ninja for all I care. And if you are then I'm sure you are better for it. The point is, you don't have to be to CC.

While people are waiting to achieve ninjahood the clock is ticking, waiting for full training classes to become available, spending money on classes and ammo while still haven't taken CHL course or submitted application, I don't think people realize there is a wait time to get plastic. So the time between now and becoming LTC keeps growning and so it the time you are going about unarmed.

Train as you wish, spend your $ as you wish, your journey is yours to take, make of it what you will. But those who are capable and serious about getting LTC, (politics and 2A infringements aside) please consider the benefits of getting your LTC sooner than later. Carry your gun!

Get the no training = no LTC out of your heads. This is some self imposed PC nonsense that at least from my experience, people take to mean " i need to take ninja seal training and if it does involve SWAT tactics or rappelling from helicopters them I'm not ready" training. I think it's partially perpetuated by competing training schools who feel the need to boast the qualifications of their instructiors as ex-special forces members and include tactical in the title of the training classes.

The other things is they don't know what they don't know. They don't realize that they don't really need to know as much as they think they do. At least because I started the journey I know what I need and what I don't. I can always improve in the mean time but until I become a tactical ninja seal swat team helicopter rappelling machine, I am protected.

My wife who has LTC won't carry, say she needs more practice and a couple of friend's who have the skills but won't get LTC/carry, they say they need more training. All have the skills, all lack the mindset.

ETA: Ok, Middle Age Russ, re-read comments in bold and they would make sense when applied to yourself, if you already have LTC and regularly carry. That would apply to me too! But my post is about those who don't carry not those who do.

LSUTiger wrote:

Middle Age Russ wrote:The path each of us takes through this life is unique. Same with the path to the armed lifestyle. LSUTiger, it seems that your path included a bit of training, a bunch of practicing, a solid "warrior" mindset, and an ample amount of self-confidence. You make good points about mindset, and I agree that some folks are simply not turned that direction, so to speak. From my perspective, the other key element that seems lacking to some degree in the subjects you refer to is the requisite level of self-confidence. Your self-confidence is likely bolstered by validation that your practiced skills and decision-making are in line with how "professionals" do things -- and I imagine some of that validation is related to your active membership on this forum. For whatever reason, the folks you mention don't presently feel confident in either their abilities or their decision-making, and many of them may seek training as a means to enhance their confidence to some degree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them seeking training -- it may simply be part of their journey.

Seemingly like you, I came into the armed lifestyle largely due to a proper mindset and ample self-confidence, but little formal training. I continue to hone associated skill-sets through training and practice as often as possible, and recommend that others do the same, but this skill-set enhancement has very little to do with mind-set and only an incremental effect on self-confidence.

Perhaps you misunderstand my post??? Or I misunderstood your reply ???

When self proclaimed "gun guys" who purport to be concerned with self defense issues demonstrate a reasonable degree of proficiency and knowledge I don't know what else causes their hesitation or lack of commitment to carrying besides wrong mindset (or haven't fully developed the right one or just don't want to carry). How much skill set enhancement is enough to say OK, I can CC now!? Also, if you said skill enhancement would greatly increase confidence I would agree, but you kind of said not so much.

As mentioned in my post, I don't have any problems with those who want training. Completely new shooters would benefit the most and reduce the learning curve. The more the better, become a James Yeager certified tactical ninja for all I care. And if you are then I'm sure you are better for it. The point is, you don't have to be to CC.

While people are waiting to achieve ninjahood the clock is ticking, waiting for full training classes to become available, spending money on classes and ammo while still haven't taken CHL course or submitted application, I don't think people realize there is a wait time to get plastic. So the time between now and becoming LTC keeps growning and so it the time you are going about unarmed.

Train as you wish, spend your $ as you wish, your journey is yours to take, make of it what you will. But those who are capable and serious about getting LTC, (politics and 2A infringements aside) please consider the benefits of getting your LTC sooner than later. Carry your gun!

Get the no training = no LTC out of your heads. This is some self imposed PC nonsense that at least from my experience, people take to mean " i need to take ninja seal training and if it does involve SWAT tactics or rappelling from helicopters them I'm not ready" training. I think it's partially perpetuated by competing training schools who feel the need to boast the qualifications of their instructiors as ex-special forces members and include tactical in the title of the training classes.

The other things is they don't know what they don't know. They don't realize that they don't really need to know as much as they think they do. At least because I started the journey I know what I need and what I don't. I can always improve in the mean time but until I become a tactical ninja seal swat team helicopter rappelling machine, I am protected.

My wife who has LTC won't carry, say she needs more practice and a couple of friend's who have the skills but won't get LTC/carry, they say they need more training. All have the skills, all lack the mindset.

I do agree that the mindset must come first before you consider getting an LTC, take training etc. Because it is all for nothing if you are faced with a situation, that requires not only the mechanical skills,(which as you have stated are not "the most important thing") but being able to effectively defend yourself if called upon to do so. Mrs Jusme, is also lacking in the mindset and has put off getting an LTC because she feels that she is not "proficient enough" with her gun. Although I have taken her shooting several times, and she has all of the required motor skills needed to draw, fire, and hit her target. I still don't know if she will be mentally ready at the moment of truth. But again, I don't know if that is something that can be changed. I'm certain that no matter how confident she becomes with shooting her gun, it won't translate into being mentally prepared to act when required. I do agree that more training will never be a detriment, but it can't replace the mental aspect necessary for using it when needed. Some people only come to that mindset after they have been victimized or experienced a close call, and they decide to never be in that situation again, without the means to do something about it.JMHO

LSUTiger, I do believe that you and I are in agreement. To the extent that you can legally do so, please DO carry. Mindset is absolutely a key component of adopting the armed lifestyle. Regarding confidence (which I view as a component of mindset), I think that many people either doubt their abilities with a firearm or they doubt their ability to act decisively in a time of need. A lack of confidence in at least one of these areas might induce the sort of responses you note, but then again the respondent could be rationalizing a different underlying mindset issue.

The mindset to carry wherever possible seems to be related to a continuum of behavior in response to an imminent threat. On the one end, there is the mental image that first responders (and some others as well) will run toward trouble to engage it instead of running away. The other end are those who have no innate urge to protect themselves and others (I have actually met a few of these folks and I for the life of me cannot see things from their perspective). Most of us lie somewhere in between. My take is that most folks on this forum won't necessarily run toward trouble to engage it, but will most certainly act to stop it if they must to protect themselves or others -- and we carry against the possibility that such tools might be needed. The folks you refer to likely have an urge to protect themselves and others but aren't sure of themselves, perhaps because they have never been tested in some way or maybe even failed a test of sorts.

The hobbyists and then there are then pro. The pro do not skip safety nor training. Sweat saves blood. It is your choice.

Beiruty wrote:The hobbyists and then there are then pro. The pro do not skip safety nor training. Sweat saves blood. It is your choice.

The pro's also CARRY!

Musicians, some of us anyway, say, "Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."

I don't know whats better or worse. Over confident and well trained, No confidence with no training //

Training builds mindset...... confidence.

LSUTiger wrote:

Beiruty wrote:The hobbyists and then there are then pro. The pro do not skip safety nor training. Sweat saves blood. It is your choice.

The pro's also CARRY!

Why train if your do not carry?

Is this conversation about professional trainers, or professional gun fighters? Who are the so called Pro's?