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Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:53 pm
by KLB
[1.] Federal law, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), bans gun and ammunition possession not just by felons, illegal aliens, illegal drug users, and the like, but also by aliens who have been perfectly legally "admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa."
[2.] "Possess[ing]" and "receiv[ing]" has been viewed as including temporary rental of a gun at a shooting range; indeed, that was one of the bases for prosecution in Rehaif. Rehaif was illegally present, but the statutory definition of possession and receipt would apply equally to all the categories of forbidden possessors and recipients, including people legally admitted under a nonimmigrant visa. Likewise, see U.S. v. Moussaoui (11th Cir. 2010), in which the defendant was indeed a legal visitor prosecuted for possession at a shooting range.
http://reason.com/volokh/2019/01/15/man ... -foreign-s
When I was a kid, we had exchange students stay with us on multiple occasions. Though I don't recall taking any of them to a shooting range, we could easily have done so.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:19 pm
by The Annoyed Man
KLB wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:53 pm
[1.] Federal law, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), bans gun and ammunition possession not just by felons, illegal aliens, illegal drug users, and the like, but also by aliens who have been perfectly legally "admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa."
[2.] "Possess[ing]" and "receiv[ing]" has been viewed as including temporary rental of a gun at a shooting range; indeed, that was one of the bases for prosecution in Rehaif. Rehaif was illegally present, but the statutory definition of possession and receipt would apply equally to all the categories of forbidden possessors and recipients, including people legally admitted under a nonimmigrant visa. Likewise, see U.S. v. Moussaoui (11th Cir. 2010), in which the defendant was indeed a legal visitor prosecuted for possession at a shooting range.
http://reason.com/volokh/2019/01/15/man ... -foreign-s
When I was a kid, we had exchange students stay with us on multiple occasions. Though I don't recall taking any of them to a shooting range, we could easily have done so.
I guess I’m an outlaw then. About 4-5 years ago, we hosted a couple of South Korean college students for a week or two who were interning at our church for a couple of months during summer. One was a young woman, and the other a young man....both in their early 20s. After finding out that the guy had already done his compulsory military service in the ROK Army, I took him too the local Bass Pro pistol range and we shot several different handguns together.
Should I turn myself in?
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:53 pm
by crazy2medic
I guess I’m an outlaw then. About 4-5 years ago, we hosted a couple of South Korean college students for a week or two who were interning at our church for a couple of months during summer. One was a young woman, and the other a young man....both in their early 20s. After finding out that the guy had already done his compulsory military service in the ROK Army, I took him too the local Bass Pro pistol range and we shot several different handguns together.
Should I turn myself in?
Don't ask, Don't tell!
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:12 am
by stroo
I have repeatedly seen foreign visitors shooting at a couple of DFW ranges.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:26 am
by stroo
If you read further in the article, legality depends on the country and the type of visa they have. Very confusing.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:32 pm
by Killadocg23
18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2)....
An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing a firearm or ammunition unless the alien falls within one of the exceptions provided in 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), such as: a valid hunting license or permit, admitted for lawful hunting or sporting purposes, certain official representatives of a foreign government, or a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:19 am
by The Annoyed Man
Killadocg23 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:32 pm
18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2)....
An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing a firearm or ammunition unless the alien falls within one of the exceptions provided in 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), such as: a valid hunting license or permit, admitted for lawful hunting or sporting purposes, certain official representatives of a foreign government, or a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
Well, I’m not going peacefully, you hear me!!!
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:39 am
by strogg
There's this indoor range I used to go to where seriously half of their clientele are clearly holding nonimmigrant visas. It was an odd place, but I genuinely commend them for spreading the positive aspects of our second amendment rights in a safe manner. The place would've had more foreigners shooting, but they hold a strict standard of safety. If the potential customer can't show the basic manual of arms for a handgun, they can't shoot.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:28 am
by RPBrown
Oh no!!! I am now a criminal. Earlier in the year, as you may recall, I took a couple to the range from New Jersey.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:52 am
by crazy2medic
RPBrown wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:28 am
Oh no!!! I am now a criminal. Earlier in the year, as you may recall, I took a couple to the range from New Jersey.
The horror! Are you gonna turn yourself in or lay low until the Statute of limitations runs out?
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:38 am
by ScottDLS
Killadocg23 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:32 pm
18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2)....
An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is prohibited from
shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing a firearm or ammunition unless the alien falls within one of the exceptions provided in 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), such as: a valid hunting license or permit, admitted for lawful hunting or sporting purposes, certain official representatives of a foreign government, or a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
I think you'll find the gray area falls in what is meant by "possessing". If a visitor uses a firearm at the range under the supervision of the range personnel and is not allowed to remove it from the area or "control" the firearm without the range personnel being present, I think you could make a strong argument that the alien did not "possess" the firearm for purposes of this law. It's quite common for foreign tourists to do supervised shooting at ranges, particularly in Las Vegas, and I doubt they make them all buy Nevada hunting licenses. Seems ATF would have dealt with this given the many ranges with FFL's.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:25 am
by RoyGBiv
Did we ever get a clear answer on this question?
I have a guest that will be visiting in a few weeks. He's a South African national in the US on a work visa.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:26 am
by PriestTheRunner
If you are range shooting for a "sporting purpose", then that seems to be a clearly defined exemption to the law.
Just my opinion.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:38 pm
by ScottDLS
PriestTheRunner wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:26 am
If you are range shooting for a "sporting purpose", then that seems to be a clearly defined exemption to the law.
Just my opinion.
I wonder if that requires that you have been specifically "admitted for sporting purposes". Perhaps the standard tourist and work visas can be considered admitted for such. It's extremely common for foreign tourists to shoot at ranges and many have offerings for this specific purposes. I'm sure the ATF is well aware of this and it seems like they would have taken action if they thought they could.
Re: Many Foreign Tourists -- and Most Foreign Students -- Are Barred from Going to Shooting Ranges
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 pm
by RoyGBiv
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:38 pm
PriestTheRunner wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:26 am
If you are range shooting for a "sporting purpose", then that seems to be a clearly defined exemption to the law.
Just my opinion.
I wonder if that requires that you have been specifically "admitted for sporting purposes". Perhaps the standard tourist and work visas can be considered admitted for such. It's extremely common for foreign tourists to shoot at ranges and many have offerings for this specific purposes. I'm sure the ATF is well aware of this and it seems like they would have taken action if they thought they could.
I'm laughing here because my friends visa is specifically for "Sports" work. He's a professional athlete..
I'll call the range tomorrow (from a payphone if I can find one
) and see what they say.