Private party bill of sale - non LTC

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rotor
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#16

Post by rotor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:56 pm

mrvmax wrote:
rotor wrote:Legally you don't have to fill out this info but what is a good reason to not do it? What if the gun has been used in a crime? I have bought many guns using the downloaded Bill of Sale and personally won't buy from anyone without all of the bill of sale filled out. Maybe 10 years from now you will need it. Not legally required but I consider it CYA.
What is a good reason not to do it? Because pro 2a guys who complain about the governments unnecessary gun regulation feel the need to make up their own rules when they sell personal firearms.
This has nothing to do with the government and believe me, I am pro 2a. All this has to do with is me covering my butt in case something down the line comes along like the gun was used in a crime or stolen or whatever. This is just common business sense and not a 2a situation. The buyer can prove he bought it. The seller can prove he sold it. Just common business sense. As I said, I wouldn't buy or sell without a bill of sale and to me it is a red flag about anyone who refuses to do one. But legally not required, your choice.


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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#17

Post by glock27 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:20 pm

I wouldn't. in all reality I would imagine quite a few people on this forum are pro constitutional carry. but yet a lot of people feel the need to collect info from a private gun sale??? if constitutional carry is legal in other states do they collect info? doubt it.

I have no interest in collecting anyone's info, or them collecting mine. it really does no good, other than a "yeah I sold that gun to so and so, heres my proof", but texas doesn't have gun registration, so any used gun that you may have purchased could have had 15 owners.


for example I had a gun stolen a few years back and it was recovered. the detective that called me had said that no charges could be filed against the guy with the gun because there was no proof that he was the one that stole the gun. guy A could have stolen it and sold it to guy BCDEFG who are all legal CHL holders etc. and no one knew anything..

I don't bother with collecting info, it does no good, you cant tell anyones intent or background by looking at a chl or DL. whats the point?
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#18

Post by rotor » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:52 pm

glock27 wrote:I wouldn't. in all reality I would imagine quite a few people on this forum are pro constitutional carry. but yet a lot of people feel the need to collect info from a private gun sale??? if constitutional carry is legal in other states do they collect info? doubt it.

I have no interest in collecting anyone's info, or them collecting mine. it really does no good, other than a "yeah I sold that gun to so and so, heres my proof", but texas doesn't have gun registration, so any used gun that you may have purchased could have had 15 owners.


for example I had a gun stolen a few years back and it was recovered. the detective that called me had said that no charges could be filed against the guy with the gun because there was no proof that he was the one that stole the gun. guy A could have stolen it and sold it to guy BCDEFG who are all legal CHL holders etc. and no one knew anything..

I don't bother with collecting info, it does no good, you cant tell anyones intent or background by looking at a chl or DL. whats the point?
Again, this is not a 2a issue and has nothing to do with constitutional carry. This is sale of what is probably an expensive tool between two individuals and I personally want a bill of sale. I don't care what everyone else does. If you deal with me you do it my way or there is no sale. Obviously, I am not buying any guns from some of you and you definitely will not be buying from me. I only buy and never sell anyhow. A sale is a contract and I want a paper trail. You do what you want. I do what I want. To the poster though, you don't legally need a bill of sale.


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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#19

Post by glock27 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:53 am

Double posted
Last edited by glock27 on Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#20

Post by glock27 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:55 am

So lets take guns out of the picture...
What if you sold a few wrenches and hammers to someone on craigslist, would you still ask for their info? It could cya if they intended on using it in a crime.

Or if i buy a baseball bat at a sporting goods store and pay cash. Should they be allowed to get my info in case the bat was used in another manner to cover themselves?

Or if i buy some rope bleach ductape kerosene plastic sheeting and a few shovels at hardware store and pay cash should the store feel obligated to get my info? Why does anyones CYA nees to be covered if you had nothing to do with the crime or intent of it that was commited if one ever did occur?

I think the whole collecting info is bogus it leads to profiling, and it appears that there are sone hypocrytical ways of thinking floating around. Slippery slope as someone said. Anyones personal opinion on someone shouldnt be a reason for the to refuse sale. Imho
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#21

Post by Solaris » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:53 am

glock27 wrote:So lets take guns out of the picture...
What if you sold a few wrenches and hammers to someone on craigslist, would you still ask for their info? It could cya if they intended on using it in a crime.
This. I do not even have BOS for guns I bought from an FFL. In fact, 99% of stuff I own I no longer have receipts for. Had a house fire, most paper is gone, USAA still replaced everything without receipts. I do not see the danger, perhaps someone can point me to a case where someone in Texas went to jail for not having a receipt for something they lawfully owned. i guess I could make up a phony BOS - Let's see, Tommy Flanagan, that is who I bought it from, I remember, he was with his wife Morgan Fairchild, yeah that is the ticket.

To each his own.

If I absolutely had to buy/sell a gun to someone who demanded a BOS, I would suggest just buying/selling through an FFL instead. Anyone who is afraid of FFL/NICS check, well, as rotors says, to me it is a red flag.


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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#22

Post by parabelum » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:12 am

glock27 wrote:I wouldn't. in all reality I would imagine quite a few people on this forum are pro constitutional carry. but yet a lot of people feel the need to collect info from a private gun sale??? if constitutional carry is legal in other states do they collect info? doubt it.

I have no interest in collecting anyone's info, or them collecting mine. it really does no good, other than a "yeah I sold that gun to so and so, heres my proof", but texas doesn't have gun registration, so any used gun that you may have purchased could have had 15 owners.


for example I had a gun stolen a few years back and it was recovered. the detective that called me had said that no charges could be filed against the guy with the gun because there was no proof that he was the one that stole the gun. guy A could have stolen it and sold it to guy BCDEFG who are all legal CHL holders etc. and no one knew anything..

I don't bother with collecting info, it does no good, you cant tell anyones intent or background by looking at a chl or DL. whats the point?
I agree :iagree:

We're fighting tooth and nail to keep the government off our backs and then we want to do onto others just as we don't want the government to do onto us.

Also, having the so called paper trail is double edged sword. What if you did BOS and the person was legal, but then some time later commits a crime and bam, your paper trail leads the inquisition to you...

No thanks.
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#23

Post by Pawpaw » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:19 am

If you just want to cover yourself, why not use a bill of sale with no personal information other than names?

Besides the make, model, & serial number, you could include boxes to initial for "TXDL verified" and "TXLTC verified" for both the seller and buyer. You could include the date and location the transaction took place. Both of you sign it and both take a copy.

Now you've covered all the bases, and no one should have any problem with it.
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#24

Post by rotor » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:02 pm

glock27 wrote:So lets take guns out of the picture...
What if you sold a few wrenches and hammers to someone on craigslist, would you still ask for their info? It could cya if they intended on using it in a crime.

Or if i buy a baseball bat at a sporting goods store and pay cash. Should they be allowed to get my info in case the bat was used in another manner to cover themselves?

Or if i buy some rope bleach ductape kerosene plastic sheeting and a few shovels at hardware store and pay cash should the store feel obligated to get my info? Why does anyones CYA nees to be covered if you had nothing to do with the crime or intent of it that was commited if one ever did occur?

I think the whole collecting info is bogus it leads to profiling, and it appears that there are sone hypocrytical ways of thinking floating around. Slippery slope as someone said. Anyones personal opinion on someone shouldnt be a reason for the to refuse sale. Imho
Let's not be ridiculous. Wrenches, no I would not get a bill of sale. How about livestock? Would you buy some cattle from a stranger without a bill of sale? Remember that it is illegal to sell a firearm to someone that you know is not legally allowed to own it. I don't believe wrenches fit into that category. Most firearms are expensive and the idea of a paper trail to my thinking is a good idea. I wouldn't buy a diamond ring from a stranger either without a paper trail. As I said though, you do what ever you want to do when buying or selling a firearm. I won't buy or sell to someone that won't fill out a bill of sale and they know it in advance. That's my option and that's how I do business. You can do it anyway you want.
I don't see how filling out a BOS is "profiling". And yes, if a guy came in with swastikas on his forehead and love hate symbols tattooed on his hands my personal opinion would be to not sell to him even with a bill of sale.
I am also very weary about these sales. I never go alone. My wife usually is with me and has a weapon on the ready. Remember, significant cash is about to transpire here so caution is the name of the game. Recent shooting and theft at a local gun store and the owner has just now been able to get back to work. About 25 years ago a gun shop owner was murdered in my city and police have never found killer. Be extra careful on these type of sales. As I said, I trust nobody.


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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#25

Post by mdubtx » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:31 pm

Thanks for EVERYONE's opinions. I think I got where I wanted to be without thwarting the 2A. I have some record of having asked them if they were legal to buy and no ID #'s or addresses exchanged.

Definitely more of a hot button issue than I expected it to be. :boxing
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#26

Post by mikebass78 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:55 pm

I will give no one more than my name and phone number..PERIOD...You dont need anymore than that...

I dont want my info flying flying around in a regular joes hands....FFL's fine, they HAVE to have it...But a regular Joe...like someone one mentioned, I trust no one...

Identity theft is at an all time high. Not getting my name address and CHL #, TXDL etc....the criminals are already halfway there if they get ahold of that info...

I'll gladly pass on a firearm from anyone who requests that much info, I'll buy online, like I usually do anyway.


BUT to the OP, this is always a hot topic, always has been always will be.


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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#27

Post by Texsquatch » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:02 pm

mdubtx wrote:I have not had any red flags raised by our conversations. I started my post wanting to make sure I was not negating the purpose of the bill of sale. But, then realized I was overthinking the matter since there is no bill of sale required. I don't see anything wrong with asking him to sign something stating that he meets the conditions of a transfer form without getting his personal info. I wouldn't ask for his and refuse to give my own. And, see no reason to give him mine.
I see no reason. If you're saying he meets your conditions of the transfer, then aren't you in a sense vouching for him? Couldn't that come back to haunt you if he does commit some criminal act or if he was not legally allowed to posses a firearm in the first place?

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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#28

Post by goose » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:13 pm

rotor wrote:
glock27 wrote:So lets take guns out of the picture...
What if you sold a few wrenches and hammers to someone on craigslist, would you still ask for their info? It could cya if they intended on using it in a crime.

Or if i buy a baseball bat at a sporting goods store and pay cash. Should they be allowed to get my info in case the bat was used in another manner to cover themselves?

Or if i buy some rope bleach ductape kerosene plastic sheeting and a few shovels at hardware store and pay cash should the store feel obligated to get my info? Why does anyones CYA nees to be covered if you had nothing to do with the crime or intent of it that was commited if one ever did occur?

I think the whole collecting info is bogus it leads to profiling, and it appears that there are sone hypocrytical ways of thinking floating around. Slippery slope as someone said. Anyones personal opinion on someone shouldnt be a reason for the to refuse sale. Imho
Let's not be ridiculous. Wrenches, no I would not get a bill of sale. How about livestock? Would you buy some cattle from a stranger without a bill of sale? Remember that it is illegal to sell a firearm to someone that you know is not legally allowed to own it. I don't believe wrenches fit into that category. Most firearms are expensive and the idea of a paper trail to my thinking is a good idea. I wouldn't buy a diamond ring from a stranger either without a paper trail. As I said though, you do what ever you want to do when buying or selling a firearm. I won't buy or sell to someone that won't fill out a bill of sale and they know it in advance. That's my option and that's how I do business. You can do it anyway you want.
I don't see how filling out a BOS is "profiling". And yes, if a guy came in with swastikas on his forehead and love hate symbols tattooed on his hands my personal opinion would be to not sell to him even with a bill of sale.
I am also very weary about these sales. I never go alone. My wife usually is with me and has a weapon on the ready. Remember, significant cash is about to transpire here so caution is the name of the game. Recent shooting and theft at a local gun store and the owner has just now been able to get back to work. About 25 years ago a gun shop owner was murdered in my city and police have never found killer. Be extra careful on these type of sales. As I said, I trust nobody.
But you are trusting them with your personal information. Or do you expect to get their information, but they get none of yours? If you are giving them your information, you are trusting them with the holy grail. As others have said, you are trusting that they won't want to come to your house uninvited to check if you have more guns; You are trusting that with your information they don't sell it to someone looking to get a credit card in your name. I have never heard of a person going to jail for a sold firearm later used in a crime.

If you are taking information but giving none, your model works I suppose.
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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#29

Post by rotor » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:11 pm

Goose
But you are trusting them with your personal information. Or do you expect to get their information, but they get none of yours? If you are giving them your information, you are trusting them with the holy grail. As others have said, you are trusting that they won't want to come to your house uninvited to check if you have more guns; You are trusting that with your information they don't sell it to someone looking to get a credit card in your name. I have never heard of a person going to jail for a sold firearm later used in a crime.

If you are taking information but giving none, your model works I suppose.
Forget that this is a gun transaction. Let's say you are selling or buying anything else of value. Would you not want a bill of sale? If not that is your business. As far as going to jail for a sold firearm later used in a crime, happens all the time with straw purchases. Yesterday was on the news as a matter of fact woman (girlfriend) bought an AK and a handgun for felon boyfriend and he killed a bunch of people and she faces 10 years. Not that a BOS would have mattered but transfer of a gun to someone that shouldn't have it can put you in jail. This topic though has been beaten to death and I respect all the people that don't want to provide BOS and my feeling is that I want a BOS and that's how I do business. Not every sale goes through. No big deal.

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Re: Private party bill of sale - non LTC

#30

Post by misterlarry » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:02 am

I only sell to CHL/LTC holders or people that I know well. Always use a BOS.

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