An interesting legal quote.....

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An interesting legal quote.....

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Post by The Annoyed Man »

A friend of mine posted this quote earlier today on Facebook. It is taken from SCOTUS Justice Tom Clark in the majority opinion in Mapp v. Ohio (1961, http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/367/643):
Justice Clark wrote:Nothing can destroy a government more quickly than its failure to observe its own laws, or worse, its disregard of the charter of its own existence.
That case involved possession of pornography charges (it was illegal in those days) against the defendant, said charges being based on evidence seized by means of a fake paper warrant, on another entirely unrelated matter of which the defendant was not guilty. The syllabus says:
All evidence obtained by searches and seizures in violation of the Federal Constitution is inadmissible in a criminal trial in a state court.
In that quote from his opinion, Justice Clark was paraphrasing Justice Brandeis in Olmstead v. United States (1928, http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt ... 77_0438_ZD). That case was about warrantless wiretapping of people accused of violating the National Prohibition Act, and the Court found against the defendant. In his dissenting opinion, Brandeis said:
Justice Brandeis wrote:Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. . . . If the Government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
Brandeis spoke SO eloquently for preserving the integrity of the 4th and 5th Amendments, even referring to as yet undiscovered technologies:
By objections seasonably made and persistently renewed, the defendants objected to the admission of the evidence obtained by wiretapping on the ground that the Government's wiretapping constituted an unreasonable search and seizure in violation of the Fourth Amendment, and that the use as evidence of the conversations overheard compelled the defendants to be witnesses against themselves in violation of the Fifth Amendment.

The Government makes no attempt to defend the methods employed by its officers. Indeed, it concedes [p472] that, if wiretapping can be deemed a search and seizure within the Fourth Amendment, such wiretapping as was practiced in the case at bar was an unreasonable search and seizure, and that the evidence thus obtained was inadmissible. But it relies on the language of the Amendment, and it claims that the protection given thereby cannot properly be held to include a telephone conversation.

"We must never forget," said Mr. Chief Justice Marshall in McCulloch v. Maryland, 4 Wheat. 316, 407, "that it is a constitution we are expounding." Since then, this Court has repeatedly sustained the exercise of power by Congress, under various clauses of that instrument, over objects of which the Fathers could not have dreamed. See Pensacola Telegraph Co. v. Western Union Telegraph Co., 96 U.S. 1, 9; Northern Pacific Ry. Co. v. North Dakota, 250 U.S. 135; Dakota Central Telephone Co. v. South Dakota, 250 U.S. 163; Brooks v. United States, 267 U.S. 432. We have likewise held that general limitations on the powers of Government, like those embodied in the due process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, do not forbid the United States or the States from meeting modern conditions by regulations which, "a century ago, or even half a century ago, probably would have been rejected as arbitrary and oppressive." Village of Euclid v. Ambler Realty Co., 272 U.S. 365, 387; Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200. Clauses guaranteeing to the individual protection against specific abuses of power must have a similar capacity of adaptation to a changing world. It was with reference to such a clause that this Court said, in Weems v. United States, 217 U.S. 349, 373:

Legislation, both statutory and constitutional, is enacted, it is true, from an experience of evils, but its general language should not, therefore, be necessarily confined to the form that evil had theretofore taken. Time works changes, brings into existence new conditions [p473] and purposes. Therefore, a principle, to be vital, must be capable of wider application than the mischief which gave it birth. This is peculiarly true of constitutions. They are not ephemeral enactments, designed to meet passing occasions. They are, to use the words of Chief Justice Marshall "designed to approach immortality as nearly as human institutions can approach it." The future is their care, and provision for events of good and bad tendencies of which no prophecy can be made. In the application of a constitution, therefore, our contemplation cannot be only of what has been, but of what may be. Under any other rule, a constitution would indeed be as easy of application as it would be deficient in efficacy and power. Its general principles would have little value, and be converted by precedent into impotent and lifeless formulas. Rights declared in words might be lost in reality.

When the Fourth and Fifth Amendments were adopted, "the form that evil had theretofore taken" had been necessarily simple. Force and violence were then the only means known to man by which a Government could directly effect self-incrimination. It could compel the individual to testify -- a compulsion effected, if need be, by torture. It could secure possession of his papers and other articles incident to his private life -- a seizure effected, if need be, by breaking and entry. Protection against such invasion of "the sanctities of a man's home and the privacies of life" was provided in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments by specific language. Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 630. But "time works changes, brings into existence new conditions and purposes." Subtler and more far-reaching means of invading privacy have become available to the Government. Discovery and invention have made it possible for the Government, by means far more effective than stretching upon the rack, to obtain disclosure in court of what is whispered in the closet. [p474]

Moreover, "in the application of a constitution, our contemplation cannot be only of what has, been but of what may be." The progress of science in furnishing the Government with means of espionage is not likely to stop with wiretapping. Ways may someday be developed by which the Government, without removing papers from secret drawers, can reproduce them in court, and by which it will be enabled to expose to a jury the most intimate occurrences of the home. Advances in the psychic and related sciences may bring means of exploring unexpressed beliefs, thoughts and emotions. "That places the liberty of every man in the hands of every petty officer" was said by James Otis of much lesser intrusions than these. [n1] To Lord Camden, a far slighter intrusion seemed "subversive of all the comforts of society." [n2] Can it be that the Constitution affords no protection against such invasions of individual security?

A sufficient answer is found in Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 627-630, a case that will be remembered as long as civil liberty lives in the United States. This Court there reviewed the history that lay behind the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. We said with reference to Lord Camden's judgment in Entick v. Carrington, 19 Howell's State Trials 1030:

The principles laid down in this opinion affect the very essence of constitutional liberty and security. They reach farther than the concrete form of the case there before the court, with its adventitious circumstances; they apply to all invasions on the part of the Government and its employes of the sanctities of a man's home and the privacies of life. It is not the breaking of his doors, and the rummaging of his drawers, that constitutes the essence of the offence; but it is the invasion of his indefeasible right of personal security, [p475] personal liberty and private property, where that right has never been forfeited by his conviction of some public offence -- it is the invasion of this sacred right which underlies and constitutes the essence of Lord Camden's judgment. Breaking into a house and opening boxes and drawers are circumstances of aggravation; but any forcible and compulsory extortion of a man's own testimony or of his private papers to be used as evidence of a crime or to forfeit his goods is within the condemnation of that judgment. In this regard, the Fourth and Fifth Amendments run almost into each other. [n3]

In Ex parte Jackson, 96 U.S. 727, it was held that a sealed letter entrusted to the mail is protected by the Amendments. The mail is a public service furnished by the Government. The telephone is a public service furnished by its authority. There is, in essence, no difference between the sealed letter and the private telephone message. As Judge Rudkin said below:

True, the one is visible, the other invisible; the one is tangible, the other intangible; the one is sealed, and the other unsealed, but these are distinctions without a difference.

The evil incident to invasion of the privacy of the telephone is far greater than that involved in tampering with the mails. Whenever a telephone line is tapped, the privacy of the persons at both ends of the line is invaded and all conversations [p476] between them upon any subject, and, although proper, confidential and privileged, may be overheard. Moreover, the tapping of one man's telephone line involves the tapping of the telephone of every other person whom he may call or who may call him. As a means of espionage, writs of assistance and general warrants are but puny instruments of tyranny and oppression when compared with wiretapping.

Time and again, this Court in giving effect to the principle underlying the Fourth Amendment, has refused to place an unduly literal construction upon it. This was notably illustrated in the Boyd case itself. Taking language in its ordinary meaning, there is no "search" or "seizure" when a defendant is required to produce a document in the orderly process of a court's procedure. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" would not be violated, under any ordinary construction of language, by compelling obedience to a subpoena. But this Court holds the evidence inadmissible simply because the information leading to the issue of the subpoena has been unlawfully secured. Silverthorne Lumber Co. v. United States, 251 U.S. 385. Literally, there is no "search" or "seizure" when a friendly visitor abstracts papers from an office; yet we held in Gouled v. United States, 255 U.S. 298, that evidence so obtained could not be used. No court which looked at the words of the Amendment, rather than at its underlying purpose, would hold, as this Court did in Ex parte Jackson, 96 U.S. 727, 733, that its protection extended to letters in the mails. The provision against self-incrimination in the Fifth Amendment has been given an equally broad construction. The language is: "No person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself." Yet we have held not only that the [p477] protection of the Amendment extends to a witness before a grand jury, although he has not been charged with crime, Counselman v. Hitchcock, 142 U.S. 547, 562, 586, but that:

[ i ]t applies alike to civil and criminal proceedings, wherever the answer might tend to subject to criminal responsibility him who gives it. The privilege protects a mere witness as fully as it does one who is also a party defendant.

McCarthy v. Arndsten, 266 U.S. 34, 40. The narrow language of the Amendment has been consistently construed in the light of its object,

to insure that a person should not be compelled, when acting as a witness in any investigation, to give testimony which might tend to show that he himself had committed a crime. The privilege is limited to criminal matters, but it is as broad as the mischief against which it seeks to guard.

Counselman v. Hitchcock, supra, p. 562.

Decisions of this Court applying the principle of the Boyd case have settled these things. Unjustified search and seizure violates the Fourth Amendment, whatever the character of the paper; [n4] whether the paper when taken by the federal officers was in the home, [n5] in an office, [n6] or elsewhere; [n7] whether the taking was effected by force, [n8] by [p478] fraud, [n9] or in the orderly process of a court's procedure. [n10] From these decisions, it follows necessarily that the Amendment is violated by the officer's reading the paper without a physical seizure, without his even touching it, and that use, in any criminal proceeding, of the contents of the paper so examined -- as where they are testified to by a federal officer who thus saw the document, or where, through knowledge so obtained, a copy has been procured elsewhere [n11] -- any such use constitutes a violation of the Fifth Amendment.

The protection guaranteed by the Amendments is much broader in scope. The makers of our Constitution undertook to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness. They recognized the significance of man's spiritual nature, of his feelings, and of his intellect. They knew that only a part of the pain, pleasure and satisfactions of life are to be found in material things. They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions and their sensations. They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by civilized men. To protect that right, every unjustifiable intrusion by the Government upon the privacy of the individual, whatever the means employed, must be deemed a violation of the Fourth Amendment. And the use, as evidence [p479] in a criminal proceeding, of facts ascertained by such intrusion must be deemed a violation of the Fifth.

Applying to the Fourth and Fifth Amendments the established rule of construction, the defendants' objections to the evidence obtained by wiretapping must, in my opinion, be sustained. It is, of course, immaterial where the physical connection with the telephone wires leading into the defendants' premises was made. And it is also immaterial that the intrusion was in aid of law enforcement. Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. [n12]

Independently of the constitutional question, I am of opinion that the judgment should be reversed. By the laws of Washington, wiretapping is a crime. [n13] Pierce's [p480] Code, 1921, § 8976(18). To prove its case, the Government was obliged to lay bare the crimes committed by its officers on its behalf. A federal court should not permit such a prosecution to continue. Compare Harkin v. Brundage, 276 U.S. 36, id., 604. [p481]
In 1968, the Court redeemed itself in Katz v. United States, reversing Olmstead. The Court held:
Held:
  1. The Government's eavesdropping activities violated the privacy upon which petitioner justifiably relied while using the telephone booth, and thus constituted a "search and seizure" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. Pp. 350-353.
    1. The Fourth Amendment governs not only the seizure of tangible items, but extends as well to the recording of oral statements. Silverman v. United States, 365 U.S. 505, 511. P. 353.
    2. Because the Fourth Amendment protects people, rather than places, its reach cannot turn on the presence or absence of a physical intrusion into any given enclosure. The "trespass" doctrine of Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438, and Goldman v. United States, 316 U.S. 129, is no longer controlling. Pp. 351, 353.
  2. Although the surveillance in this case may have been so narrowly circumscribed that it could constitutionally have been authorized in advance, it was not in fact conducted pursuant to the warrant procedure which is a constitutional precondition of such electronic surveillance. Pp. 354-359.
369 F.2d 130, reversed. [p348]
Apparently, Katz settled 4th and 5th Amendment protections for a while, but it seems like we no longer have that security, either against self-incrimination, or in our persons and effects.

NSA spies on all of us, whether or not we're actually suspected of having done anything wrong.....just trolling our communications - including this post - for evidence of "unreliability".

The FBI taps the phones of Associated Press just to sniff around. Holder's DOJ investigates James Rosen (while Bush's DOJ leaves the NYT alone for scooping the FISA Court/NSA spying).

Law enforcement can just up and take your property and financial assets under Asset Forfeiture law, without due process, without any kind of conviction, or even charges being filed, and with an almost negligible chance of recovering your possessions and financial assets without spending yourself into the poorhouse in legal fees.

It just seems like we have a lot more to be afraid of from Government than we have in blessings these days.

Am I crazy? Paranoid? Or is the country actually going to heck in a handbasket, while big government flushes the Constitution down the toilet? These are all significant assaults on the 4th and 5th Amendments.....some on the 1st Amendment, and some on the ancient common-law right of property. Although we have made gains at the state level in 2nd Amendment protections, and a couple of significant gains at the national level (Heller, McDonald), the 2nd seems to hang in the balance as the other three come more and more under assault.

I'd be particularly interested in the opinions of any of our lawyers about the current state of 4th and 5th Amendment protections, and if any of you have concerns about where all of this is headed.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#2

Post by The Annoyed Man »

58 views, and no comments? :mrgreen:
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#3

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The Annoyed Man wrote:58 views, and no comments? :mrgreen:
Its to depressing
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#4

Post by MechAg94 »

I was thinking that many think the 1st amendment is the most important. I think it falls behind those two.

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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#5

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Yes, a comment - but I'm not sure of attribution for the quote. It has something to do with nothing being sadder than being part of a once-great civilization, in decline.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

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The Annoyed Man wrote:58 views, and no comments? :mrgreen:
You're absolutely not crazy or paranoid. The police state may wear a leather instead of an iron glove, but it's a police state nonetheless. Having gone to high school in Texas in the early 70s, had I not lived through the decades to this day, this country would be unrecognizable to me. My sons, who were born in the late 80s think things are drastically different now than even 20 years ago. I read a quote to the same effect by Merle Haggard a few years back. I think the actions of Congress subsequent to the election are a clear demonstration that the government is out of control and no longer in any way represents the governed. Now it's only a matter of time until a significant percentage of t he population concludes that voting is now meaningless.

There was an essay in the Washington Post the other day, about how "dangerous" the ideas portrayed in the "Hunger Games" movies are. I read through the comments and well over 90% were critical of the author and of the opinion that the system is broken and can't be repaired. A reckoning is coming, outcome unpredictable.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

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VMI77 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:58 views, and no comments? :mrgreen:
You're absolutely not crazy or paranoid. The police state may wear a leather instead of an iron glove, but it's a police state nonetheless. Having gone to high school in Texas in the early 70s, had I not lived through the decades to this day, this country would be unrecognizable to me. My sons, who were born in the late 80s think things are drastically different now than even 20 years ago. I read a quote to the same effect by Merle Haggard a few years back. I think the actions of Congress subsequent to the election are a clear demonstration that the government is out of control and no longer in any way represents the governed. Now it's only a matter of time until a significant percentage of t he population concludes that voting is now meaningless.

There was an essay in the Washington Post the other day, about how "dangerous" the ideas portrayed in the "Hunger Games" movies are. I read through the comments and well over 90% were critical of the author and of the opinion that the system is broken and can't be repaired. A reckoning is coming, outcome unpredictable.
I believe I read the same articles.

The outcome depends on two things.

If the goal is to just eliminate the tyrants we gain nothing.

If the goal is to eliminate the tyrants AND reestablish constitutional rule of law we win.

Just eliminating tyrants leads to anarchy.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#8

Post by VMI77 »

anygunanywhere wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:58 views, and no comments? :mrgreen:
You're absolutely not crazy or paranoid. The police state may wear a leather instead of an iron glove, but it's a police state nonetheless. Having gone to high school in Texas in the early 70s, had I not lived through the decades to this day, this country would be unrecognizable to me. My sons, who were born in the late 80s think things are drastically different now than even 20 years ago. I read a quote to the same effect by Merle Haggard a few years back. I think the actions of Congress subsequent to the election are a clear demonstration that the government is out of control and no longer in any way represents the governed. Now it's only a matter of time until a significant percentage of t he population concludes that voting is now meaningless.

There was an essay in the Washington Post the other day, about how "dangerous" the ideas portrayed in the "Hunger Games" movies are. I read through the comments and well over 90% were critical of the author and of the opinion that the system is broken and can't be repaired. A reckoning is coming, outcome unpredictable.
I believe I read the same articles.

The outcome depends on two things.

If the goal is to just eliminate the tyrants we gain nothing.

If the goal is to eliminate the tyrants AND reestablish constitutional rule of law we win.

Just eliminating tyrants leads to anarchy.
That's why I said outcome unpredictable. There is also the possibility that the current tyrants just get replaced with worse tyrants. Usually these things don't go well....the American Revolution was unique. On the plus side, we have it as an example.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#9

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anygunanywhere wrote:...just eliminating tyrants leads to anarchy.
Absolutely correct. And (it is early in the day so I am not as negative as normal), I see and hear a number of people of various political stripes saying the same thing: that we (the People) need to get our heads out of the sand and vote the [expletive]s out, and better ones in, before it gets so bad that it can not be fixed and needs to be thrown out and replaced.

I, for one, do not want to see the US Constitution "replaced" at all. I want to see us - as in US - take the wheel back from the madmen steering us over the cliff.

And to keep this gun-related; all the emails that the various online retailers send me seem to indicate that at least 9 mm, 45 ACP, .223/5.56, and .380 are available, and at prices from 2-3 years ago, pre-panic. I take that to mean that everyone who sees a crisis coming has all the ammunition they think they'll need to see them through it. And that's a good thing.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

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I heard an argument, but can't recall when, on the news, to the effect that the "internet" is government property and therefore all communications on the internet are considered government property and not subject to the 4th Amendment. I would have loved to have been there armed with this quote: "In Ex parte Jackson, 96 U.S. 727, it was held that a sealed letter entrusted to the mail is protected by the Amendments. The mail is a public service furnished by the Government. The telephone is a public service furnished by its authority. There is, in essence, no difference between the sealed letter and the private telephone message."
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#11

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The idea that we must observe our own laws and honor where they came from is not just truth, it's based in fact. Basic reasoning states that in the absence of another explanation, you have to accept what is in front of you as truth (read C.S. Lewis). If we continue the ruinous path of disregarding our own laws and not honoring where they came from, the truth will have nothing left to stand on other than the hearts of men.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#12

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txcharvel wrote:.....the truth will have nothing left to stand on other than the hearts of men.
Which are notoriously fickle, corruptible, and unreliable.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#13

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The Annoyed Man wrote: NSA spies on all of us, whether or not we're actually suspected of having done anything wrong.....just trolling our communications - including this post - for evidence of "unreliability".

The FBI taps the phones of Associated Press just to sniff around. Holder's DOJ investigates James Rosen (while Bush's DOJ leaves the NYT alone for scooping the FISA Court/NSA spying).

Law enforcement can just up and take your property and financial assets under Asset Forfeiture law, without due process, without any kind of conviction, or even charges being filed, and with an almost negligible chance of recovering your possessions and financial assets without spending yourself into the poorhouse in legal fees.

It just seems like we have a lot more to be afraid of from Government than we have in blessings these days.

Am I crazy? Paranoid? Or is the country actually going to heck in a handbasket, while big government flushes the Constitution down the toilet? These are all significant assaults on the 4th and 5th Amendments.....some on the 1st Amendment, and some on the ancient common-law right of property. Although we have made gains at the state level in 2nd Amendment protections, and a couple of significant gains at the national level (Heller, McDonald), the 2nd seems to hang in the balance as the other three come more and more under assault.

I'd be particularly interested in the opinions of any of our lawyers about the current state of 4th and 5th Amendment protections, and if any of you have concerns about where all of this is headed.

Honestly I think we have more protection and a more honest government than ever before. The only thing is that technology makes it possible to be so much more efficient than ever before in the collection and use of info. People also want to go on about policing but the thing is that I don't think they have a true picture of what it used to be like. It's more about press coverage and that we talk so much more about these things than it is about the true state of affairs.
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

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Post by The Annoyed Man »

EEllis wrote: Honestly I think we have more protection and a more honest government than ever before. The only thing is that technology makes it possible to be so much more efficient than ever before in the collection and use of info. People also want to go on about policing but the thing is that I don't think they have a true picture of what it used to be like. It's more about press coverage and that we talk so much more about these things than it is about the true state of affairs.
Thank you for following up un my prompt.
just saw this today: http://www.npr.org/2014/12/15/370995815 ... ing-of-law

It's another SCOTUS 4th Amendment decision with a twist.....
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Re: An interesting legal quote.....

#15

Post by EEllis »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
EEllis wrote: Honestly I think we have more protection and a more honest government than ever before. The only thing is that technology makes it possible to be so much more efficient than ever before in the collection and use of info. People also want to go on about policing but the thing is that I don't think they have a true picture of what it used to be like. It's more about press coverage and that we talk so much more about these things than it is about the true state of affairs.
Thank you for following up un my prompt.
just saw this today: http://www.npr.org/2014/12/15/370995815 ... ing-of-law

It's another SCOTUS 4th Amendment decision with a twist.....
To me it's like people complaining about something like loosening restrictions on police over Miranda warnings. They don't seem to remember that before the 60's there was no warning. Cops routinely did things we we call coercion today. So much of how the cops operated had to do with who you were. "Law abiding" citizens could carry guns and get away with things that would put you in jail if you were poor or minority. This has been going on for the full history of our country. Now we worry about such things but the truth is for just about any violation that currently occurs it was probably much worse before. The only slight concern is that maybe technology allows people to do more with certain things than they could before. But to me that is a separate issue that the govt is taking away our rights.
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