Another newbie legal type question

The "What Works, What Doesn't," "Recommendations & Experiences"

Moderators: carlson1, Crossfire

Post Reply

Topic author
RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Another newbie legal type question

#1

Post by RPB » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:22 pm

Ok, I generally carry a small .380 IWB, but very very often carry my 9mm Glock or .40 S&W Glock in a leather waistpack/fannypack, and you can't tell there is a gun inside, unless it's opened.I know of one wrongful detention by a Wal-Mart years ago, resulting in a lawsuit against WalMart, where a man was detained when they thought he was shoplifting, but he wasn't.

My question is sort of constituional search and seizure/false imprisonment versus "concealed"

Really, I just want to know how to handle a situation, should it ever occur:

Suppose I'm leaving a WalMart and the lady by the exit door asked to see inside my fanny pack.

Would I open it for her there, and be in violation for not being concealed

or

Ask her to call the manager where we could go in his office and ask what the probable cause of the search is, and then ?

or

Show the Manager, or store security, my license and hand him my fanny pack containing my weapon

or

Explain or show the manager my license, but hang onto it, and have the manager call for police if he wants to go further with the matter, and wait for police and show them my license before handing them the fanny pack containing my weapon.
-------

I could deal with the civil matter of illegal search or wrongfully detaining me later, I just want to know what's best while at the store, (so I'm not in violation of anything) if that ever occurred.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"

User avatar

TLynnHughes
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:34 pm

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#2

Post by TLynnHughes » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:29 pm

Good question! I was thinking about this sort of thing myself the other day.

T.
Women's Program Match Director
PSC Shooting Club, Inc.


"I would like to see every woman know how to handle firearms as naturally as they know how to handle babies." -- Annie Oakley


Topic author
RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#3

Post by RPB » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:36 pm

I got a couple replies elsewhere which sounds right below, but since my CHL is so new, I wanted to ask some others who are more experienced and knowledgable.

"Concealed is concealed, I wouldnt show anyone but a LEO whats in the bag...Meaning if they are accusing you of stealing, then call the PD right away."
-------
From another State:

I spoke to the deputy that handles CCW for Arapahoe County, Colorado about this very subject, though I phrased is as what happens if the loss prevention alarm goes off and they want to search me.

Politely decline their request to look. They can't force the issue unless they saw you put something in there. If they think they did, politely decline to go to the office etc. and offer to wait there and call police to handle it. If they po-po want to disarm you, let them.

I would never want to be in a store managers office with him insistant, perhaps physically so, that he get at my weapon.

Waiting politely by the door while waiting or police should keep the store people off your back until you have someone there to keep them from doing something stupid or dangerous.

After getting my answer from the deputy about my hypothetical case, I've never needed to apply that information.
-------------
Last edited by RPB on Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


Zee
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:09 pm
Location: Maybe a little left from you.

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#4

Post by Zee » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:40 pm

At the WM near me the police are always standing there at the door. They keep the officers in bidness.
80% Liberal, 90% Democrat, 100% Responsible gun owner.

Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative. John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)

Jesus was a Jewish Liberal

User avatar

Mithras61
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 913
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:43 pm
Location: Somewhere in Texas

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#5

Post by Mithras61 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:42 pm

What legal authority does the lady by the exit have to search you?
What legal authority does the Store Manager have to search you?
What legal authority does store security have to search you?

Tell them "No". They aren't law enforcement and don't have a warrant or probable cause.

If they want you to stay while they call in police (and you feel like staying), when the LEO arrives and asks for ID, show them your CHL and explain that "this is why" you chose to not open your pack.

If you don't want to stay, what legal right do they have to detain you? If they want to get aggressive and lay hands on you, I believe that's battery.


Topic author
RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#6

Post by RPB » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:46 pm

Thanks guys, I just needed reinforcement, so I don't stupidly open my zipper and flash the old lady at the door. Thinking they had some right to see inside my zipper.
Well, that sounds funny, but you know what I mean.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


Mike1951
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 3532
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:06 am
Location: SE Texas

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#7

Post by Mike1951 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:46 am

Typical newbie worries.

Unless your gun goes clattering across the floor, no one's going to notice. No one cares.

Make a genuine, reasonable effort to conceal and quit worrying.

For the majority of the population:

fanny packs = fanny packs
vests = vests
hawaiian shirts = hawaiian shirts

Whenever you hear that a concealment method screams 'gun', remember that you're most likely to be spotted by another CHLer and they aren't likely to say anything. To everyone else, it is what it is.
Mike
AF5MS
TSRA Life Member
NRA Benefactor Member

User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 12815
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#8

Post by C-dub » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:03 am

This is true Mike, but the OP wasn't concerned about being asked what's in his fanny pack because they thought he has a gun. He was worried about what to do if the little alarm goes off while he's walking through and they want to check his fanny pack for stolen merchandise.

I can't cite it, but I thought there was something here in Texas that allowed a store employee to detain a suspected shoplifter. I don't think they can search or require a person to submit to a search without consent and unless I was in a hurry I would just wait for the police or call them myself and explain. That might hurry them up a little.

It did one time when I explained that some man was harassing me about one of my dogs in my truck and I was a CHL holder and I'd really not like it go any further over this. The officer showed up in less than 3 minutes and ended up letting me go on my way and then telling the other man he could be arrested for stalking for leaving a threatening note on my truck and then waiting around for me and confronting me. As far as I know he never said anything about my CHL to the other man.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider

User avatar

Purplehood
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 4638
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#9

Post by Purplehood » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:19 am

In any event, I would never hand my weapon over to anyone (or the fanny-pack containing it) to examine. There are numerous reasons for this, not to mention liability alone.
Technically the only folks I have to admit to having a concealed weapon to are LEO's and Magistrates. There are NO store personnel that I have to advise.
Life NRA
USMC 76-93
USAR 99-07 (Retired)
OEF 06-07


Topic author
RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#10

Post by RPB » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:16 am

Mike1951 wrote:Typical newbie worries.

Unless your gun goes clattering across the floor, no one's going to notice. No one cares.

Make a genuine, reasonable effort to conceal and quit worrying.

For the majority of the population:

fanny packs = fanny packs
vests = vests
hawaiian shirts = hawaiian shirts

Whenever you hear that a concealment method screams 'gun', remember that you're most likely to be spotted by another CHLer and they aren't likely to say anything. To everyone else, it is what it is.
Good points; Guyabarra shirts or shirts like Charlie wears on 2-1/2 men ...are good too

Many years ago, I think it was SixFlags or SeaWorld many many years ago that was looking in girls purses and looked in 2 of my fanny packs at the gate as a condition of entrance onto their private property ( I think that started after an amusement park shooting years ago) ... I intentionally left my gun at home that day, but they kept A knife I had in one fannypack until we left and it was returned, but after opening the other fanny pack, which was full of my wife's tampons, they didn't even dig to the bottom of it, which had a larger knife, so they let that one through without knowing it .... but that ain't happening to me again.

But ... yeah, I see what you mean
fanny packs = fanny packs
vests = vests
hawaiian shirts = hawaiian shirts
Tampons = Tampons <grin>

I'm pretty good at concealment, as I used to wear 25 to 30 guns and have freinds on the Department try to find them, but yeah, even a waistline bulge could be an insulin pump ..... I used to be very close to everyone in a Department where I used to live, customizing their guns, selling some of them guns, etc and doing things to help their Academy, etc, I'm not really new to carrying, I used to carry in order to supply any officer a BUG, or assist him, should he need it, and they all knew it ... but since I moved to an even smaller town where the entire Dept. doesn't know me yet, so, I got newly "legal" and want to stay that way. Hence, the typical newbie concerns.
Last edited by RPB on Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:38 am, edited 6 times in total.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


chabouk
Banned
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:01 am

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#11

Post by chabouk » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:23 am

Smile politely, say "No thanks, have a nice day!" and keep walking.


Mike1951
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 3532
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:06 am
Location: SE Texas

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#12

Post by Mike1951 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:38 pm

RPB wrote:Good points; Guyabarra shirts or shirts like Charlie wears on 2-1/2 men ...are good too
Actually, I own a few dozen guyabarra shirts. They were my primary means of concealment when I was IWB carrying 1911's. Since I moved to pocket carry, I wear them because they're comfortable.
Mike
AF5MS
TSRA Life Member
NRA Benefactor Member


Topic author
RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Another newbie legal type question

#13

Post by RPB » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:36 pm

Mike1951 wrote:
RPB wrote:Good points; Guyabarra shirts or shirts like Charlie wears on 2-1/2 men ...are good too
Actually, I own a few dozen guyabarra shirts. They were my primary means of concealment when I was IWB carrying 1911's. Since I moved to pocket carry, I wear them because they're comfortable.
I never owned one until my dad, who wore them all the time passed away last year and I got all of his in every color and style, I wore one once, and liked it ... that's all I wear now. Usually with Cargo shorts with IWB primary, pocket BUG, except at Church, where I wear jeans, so my Sunday Ankle holster BUG doesn't show.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"

Post Reply

Return to “New to CHL?”