The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

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ripnbst
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The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#1

Post by ripnbst » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:04 am

Here is a link to a great read for anyone who is serious about maximizing your odds in a SD shooting. The caliber war is a long one but you cant argue with science and this article is filled with good science.

http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going- ... w.facebook" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#2

Post by jmra » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:22 am

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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#3

Post by srothstein » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:01 pm

I am going to make a few observations on the article, which may make it a little less of a good read. It has some great points, but I do not believe it is science.

The article lost me in the very first paragraph, but I may be too picky about the history. After the shootout, the FBI decided 9mm was not a good round and did not penetrate enough. One of the first shots in the gunfight hit the BG with a 9mm round through his arm, cutting the artery. He was dead without immediate first aid, and probably with it, but he had a mindset to keep fighting and did so. The after action review said the 9mm failed because it did not penetrate far enough into the chest after going through the arm. They settled on the 10 mm round as their new round to get enough power in a semi-automatic pistol. After the weapon was selected, they found there was a problem with agents who had smaller hands or physical stature. They could not handle the recoil and power of this round. despite popular belief, it was not just the female agents involved in this. These same agents had similar problems with the full size frames on 45s but did well with smaller weapons. This led to the concept of trying to get a better round than the 9mm in a smaller frame, which did lead to the 40. I guess you could say it was because of the shootout, but it was not nearly as direct as the article made it sound.

My second complaint is that anyone who thinks there are not politics involved in a governmental agency selecting a new duty weapon is deluding themselves. The article was written solely to justify the 9mm and accented the good parts and glossed over the bad. Yes, it has more ammo capability. And it is easier to fire than many weapons. And there are a lot of relatively new bullets for it that work very well. But, there is no guarantee that the best bullet will be the one selected by the FBI to go with the weapon and the overall weapon still has less penetration than larger calibers in most bullet designs.

But the proof of how the article is biased is in the way they worded the comparisons between the rounds.
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
. Look at how they tested and compared select 9mm projectiles to "most" of the premium 40 and 45. This certainly implies that the average 9mm will not perform as well as the average 40 or 45, and that the premium 9 will not perform as well as the same premium 40 or 45.

So, the question now remains, is the 9mm better than the 40 or 45? My personal answer is yes and no. There is an advantage to having 20 rounds without reloading, but there is an old police saying that if I need 20 rounds I need the SWAT team also. I have carried a 9mm (Browning Hi-Power) for a personal duty weapon, as have I carried 40 and 45. Given my preference, I would generally prefer a 1911, but I would not feel less well armed with a decent 9mm or 40.
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#4

Post by winters » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:21 pm

I like 9mm for higher round count but doesnt let you be as perfect with shot placement compared to 45acp. just my opinion though.

one line that simply baffles me from that article "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident"

wow if their hit ratio is that low maybe they need to rethink there officer training.

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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#5

Post by ScottDLS » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:48 pm

Ahh the caliber wars... 7.62 x 39 rules, 5.56 sux. :lol: Nahhh nah nahhhny naahh nahhh.

Shouldn't we put this under Political Discussions?

.44 mag and good shot placement! Brought to you by the guy that carries a 9mm kurz. :shock:
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#6

Post by MechAg94 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:18 pm

winters wrote:I like 9mm for higher round count but doesnt let you be as perfect with shot placement compared to 45acp. just my opinion though.

one line that simply baffles me from that article "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident"

wow if their hit ratio is that low maybe they need to rethink there officer training.
Why do you say 45 allows better placement? I am not sure I understand.


I agree on the training, but I guess it depends on what kind of shoot out. If everyone is behind cover, I can see any sort of gun battle with pistols have a lot of misses. However, we have all seen stories where police officers miss even at close range. I recall a friend of mine saying he got invited to a local police picnic in Lousisiana. He ended up competing a small pistol shoot they did. He was surprised how badly many of the officers did.

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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#7

Post by mojo84 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:28 pm

.45 has a bigger sweet spot. Kind of like the jumbo drivers the golfers are using nowadays. However, I don't think there is enough difference between 9mm, .45 and .40 to argue over. I'm sure someone is getting something or some kind of preferential treatment for the fbi to make the switch.
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#8

Post by ripnbst » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:30 pm

mojo84 wrote:.45 has a bigger sweet spot. Kind of like the jumbo drivers the golfers are using nowadays. However, I don't think there is enough difference between 9mm, .45 and .40 to argue over. I'm sure someone is getting something or some kind of preferential treatment for the fbi to make the switch.
I think that was the main point, ballistically the differences between them are minimal and taking into account the advantages in capacity and felt recoil that is where the 9mm really wins out. Similar enough ballistics to where they will all get the job done per the FBI standard but with the 9mm you get more chances to inflict that damage.

I will agree that the statement of "most premium 9mm matches the performance of most 40 and 45 ammunition" was pretty vague. I cant attest to the fact that they took the same bullet say the Fed HST, and compared it in 9mm and it in .45 cal side by side. The way it was worded kind of makes me think they left room for Bonded Gold Dot in 9mm and compared it to some other "premium" .45 ACP. Line for line, direct comparison I think it defies physics for the 9mm to perform as well as .45.

However, the whole objection to the 9mm due to its sub-standard performance in the shootout is not a valid one any longer. That was back then, 9mm projectiles have come a long way since the shootout. Had the guy been shot with a modern 9mil the penetration and weight retention would likely have been better.

However, the advantage of capacity still remains and if they can get "good enough" performance from 9mm to meet their requirements then the benefit of capacity is a big one.

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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#9

Post by jmra » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:34 pm

winters wrote:I like 9mm for higher round count but doesnt let you be as perfect with shot placement compared to 45acp. just my opinion though.

one line that simply baffles me from that article "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident"

wow if their hit ratio is that low maybe they need to rethink there officer training.
Get some friends and some air soft or paintball guns and set up different shoot out scenarios involving moving targets and cover. You will be shocked by the results and that doesn't factor in life or death fight or flight adrenaline.
You simply can not compare standing in front of a paper target with a shoot out.
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#10

Post by philip964 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:46 pm

Previously didn't they use 9mm before the FBI Miami shoot out, where one of the BG's had a Ranch Rifle.

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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#11

Post by jmra » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:02 pm

philip964 wrote:Previously didn't they use 9mm before the FBI Miami shoot out, where one of the BG's had a Ranch Rifle.
There were a number of GGs using a number of different weapons with a number of different calibers. Moving away from 9mm was just one of many changes. Another change was moving away from revolvers.
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#12

Post by Dragonfighter » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:32 am

My input is purely anecdotal but having treated hundreds of GSWs, I have seen guys full of 9mm holes on the streets again. That said, the article seemed too use sound reasoning and good science.
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#13

Post by MoJo » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:00 am

Face the facts, a bad hit with a .45 is no more likely to stop a fight than a bad hit with a 9mm. A good hit with a 9mm is no less likely to stop a fight than a good hit with a .45. If you don't get a good solid hit to the thoracic or to the CNS you are just poking holes in your target and probably aggravating him or her.

I haven't heard of many true "one shot stops" short of the Iraqi Republican Guardsman that was shot with the 120mm main gun of an Abrams tank during the battle of 73 Easting during Desert Storm. The tank commander said the guy just vaporized. :shock: :eek6
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#14

Post by C-dub » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:56 pm

I, for one, am glad they are switching. Maybe that will free up and result in more .45 ammo on the shelves at a more decent price. I'm seeing more .45 on the shelves, but the prices are still .10-.15 cents higher per round than before the last bout of insanity.
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Re: The FBI announces it will be going 9mm

#15

Post by CC Italian » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:12 pm

Personally I think they had it right at 10mm. They just didn't train enough Imo.

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