Private University LEOs

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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: I.S.D. Police Officers

#31

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:31 pm

n5wd wrote:i'm still trying to figure out how a thread entitled "I S D Police Officers"meaning Independent School District Pollice Officers (like those of Dallas ISD) wound up talking about Private University officers.
That's my fault and I fixed it.

Chas.

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Re: Private University LEOs

#32

Post by nightmare69 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:52 pm

Sorry for gumming up your legislation thread Charles. Do I support all the different peace officers? I do not know, I have not been in LE long enough to answer that. I do not see the list getting cut and officers stripped of their commissions though.

We are getting on the Department of Justice grants and looking into getting weapons. Since we are a police dept we can have full auto assault rifles, I do not see our Chief getting those though. We could get military vehicles also like any other PD.

I know many people disagree with police getting military grade equipment but considering how well armed the criminals we deal with are, I want every advantage I can get.
Last edited by nightmare69 on Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Private University LEOs

#33

Post by ghostrider » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:54 pm

Does this mean that universities with their own police departments are eligible for military surplus items? Such as MRAPS, M-16's, grenade launchers, etc.. How about hospitals, etc..
I think the short answer is 'yes'.

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Re: Private University LEOs

#34

Post by talltex » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:51 am

nightmare69 wrote:We are getting on the Department of Justice grants and looking into getting weapons. Since we are a police dept we can have full auto assault rifles, I do not see our Chief getting those though. We could get military vehicles also like any other PD. I know many people disagree with police getting military grade equipment but considering how well armed the criminals we deal with are, I want every advantage I can get.
Just thinking about campus police being armed with full auto weapons makes me cringe ( I hope your Chief resists that possibility). I don't know what private school you are working at, but has there EVER been an incident on campus that would have justified the campus police being equipped with full auto assault rifles? Is there any existing example of the criminals dealt with on campus, having a shootout with officers, where the criminals had superior firepower? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but it gets really old hearing that "we are being outgunned by the criminals" line used as justification for needing miltary grade weaponry. In my experience, that is an extremely rare occurence, and if there has been such a situation occur at your campus, I'd really like to read about it.
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Re: Private University LEOs

#35

Post by EEllis » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:44 am

talltex wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:We are getting on the Department of Justice grants and looking into getting weapons. Since we are a police dept we can have full auto assault rifles, I do not see our Chief getting those though. We could get military vehicles also like any other PD. I know many people disagree with police getting military grade equipment but considering how well armed the criminals we deal with are, I want every advantage I can get.
Just thinking about campus police being armed with full auto weapons makes me cringe ( I hope your Chief resists that possibility). I don't know what private school you are working at, but has there EVER been an incident on campus that would have justified the campus police being equipped with full auto assault rifles? Is there any existing example of the criminals dealt with on campus, having a shootout with officers, where the criminals had superior firepower? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but it gets really old hearing that "we are being outgunned by the criminals" line used as justification for needing miltary grade weaponry. In my experience, that is an extremely rare occurence, and if there has been such a situation occur at your campus, I'd really like to read about it.
I don't know about his school but you only have to look at the UT sniper and the Va tech shooting to think that something besides sidearms might be a good idea for cops at a school public or private. With the current thinking on spree shootings being that you want to confront them as soon as possible I would want school cops to have access to weapons that make such a response reasonable if there is a heavily armed shooter on campus. Baylor, a private university, has what 16,000+ students. They cover a big area with lots of people so if they end up being a first responder I want them able to do the job. Now of course unlike Nightmares situation every Baylor University cop is also a reserve county cop but they still cannot work off campus extra jobs.

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Re: Private University LEOs

#36

Post by mojo84 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:27 am

EEllis wrote:
talltex wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:We are getting on the Department of Justice grants and looking into getting weapons. Since we are a police dept we can have full auto assault rifles, I do not see our Chief getting those though. We could get military vehicles also like any other PD. I know many people disagree with police getting military grade equipment but considering how well armed the criminals we deal with are, I want every advantage I can get.
Just thinking about campus police being armed with full auto weapons makes me cringe ( I hope your Chief resists that possibility). I don't know what private school you are working at, but has there EVER been an incident on campus that would have justified the campus police being equipped with full auto assault rifles? Is there any existing example of the criminals dealt with on campus, having a shootout with officers, where the criminals had superior firepower? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but it gets really old hearing that "we are being outgunned by the criminals" line used as justification for needing miltary grade weaponry. In my experience, that is an extremely rare occurence, and if there has been such a situation occur at your campus, I'd really like to read about it.
I don't know about his school but you only have to look at the UT sniper and the Va tech shooting to think that something besides sidearms might be a good idea for cops at a school public or private. With the current thinking on spree shootings being that you want to confront them as soon as possible I would want school cops to have access to weapons that make such a response reasonable if there is a heavily armed shooter on campus. Baylor, a private university, has what 16,000+ students. They cover a big area with lots of people so if they end up being a first responder I want them able to do the job. Now of course unlike Nightmares situation every Baylor University cop is also a reserve county cop but they still cannot work off campus extra jobs.
Even in the examples you mentioned, fully automatic weapons would not have helped. There are options between fully automotatic rifles and sidearms..
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Re: Private University LEOs

#37

Post by Jumping Frog » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:27 am

EEllis wrote:I don't know about his school but you only have to look at the UT sniper and the Va tech shooting to think that something besides sidearms might be a good idea for cops at a school public or private.
Full auto weapons aren't a good match for either of those scenarios.

Full auto weapons are useful in battle against a large group of attacking enemy, or to lay down a large volume of covering fire. A semi-auto AR, for example, is just as useful as an M-16 (if not more useful) for any ordinary scenario against a handful of attackers. I say "if not more" because aimed fire is more effective than a "spray and pray" approach anyway.

Just my opinion, but unless we are talking platoon-size engagements :shock: , I see very little use for full auto weapons for law enforcement, including anti-terrorist action.
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Re: Private University LEOs

#38

Post by anygunanywhere » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:13 am

In the case of the Va Tech shooter armed students and professors makes more sense than militarized cops who show up after the fact.
Last edited by anygunanywhere on Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Private University LEOs

#39

Post by talltex » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:48 am

EEllis wrote:I don't know about his school but you only have to look at the UT sniper and the Va tech shooting to think that something besides sidearms might be a good idea for cops at a school public or private. With the current thinking on spree shootings being that you want to confront them as soon as possible I would want school cops to have access to weapons that make such a response reasonable if there is a heavily armed shooter on campus. Baylor, a private university, has what 16,000+ students. They cover a big area with lots of people so if they end up being a first responder I want them able to do the job. Now of course unlike Nightmares situation every Baylor University cop is also a reserve county cop but they still cannot work off campus extra jobs.
Neither of your examples shows an instance of the police being "outgunned". I didn't say they should be limited to sidearms only...regular patrol units usually have a rifle and shotgun available in the vehicle. I just think that full auto weapons on campus are totally uncalled for, and pose much more danger to the students and faculty from "friendly fire".
"I looked out under the sun and saw that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong" Ecclesiastes 9:11

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Re: Critical legislation for 2015

#40

Post by Cedar Park Dad » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:59 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As others have said, my comments are directed at the current state of the law, not at any Forum Member.

I think we should repeal all peace officer authorizations for everything other than DPS, sheriffs and deputies, constables and police officers. We have gone way overboard in authorizing various state agencies and schools to create police forces. For example the State Board of Pharmacy, municipal utility districts, Comptroller officers, water control and water district officers, Texas Medical Board investigators, Hospital District officers, Texas Racing Commission investigators, and numerous others. (See http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... 2.htm#2.12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

This is crazy!

Chas.
Agreed. It just increases bureacracy and inevitably starts the "keeping up with the Jones'" mentality. :iagree: :cheers2: :txflag:
Fruther, you can have "investigators" without them being police officers.

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Re: Private University LEOs

#41

Post by gigag04 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:44 am

If this is the same agency that can't offer you full time employment and benefits due to budget constraints, I'd be mad about them getting an APC or full auto rifles even on grants....both pieces of equipment are costly to use and maintain, and odds are you have a mutual aid agreement with a neighbor that already has them.


Also DOJ grants aren't "free" and I'm not sure my tax dollars should go to that use either. And that is a strange claim for me to make since my agency (holds my reserve commission) has boats, APCs, helicopters, and fixed wing aircraft...
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Re: Private University LEOs

#42

Post by MeMelYup » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:33 am

gigag04 wrote:If this is the same agency that can't offer you full time employment and benefits due to budget constraints, I'd be mad about them getting an APC or full auto rifles even on grants....both pieces of equipment are costly to use and maintain, and odds are you have a mutual aid agreement with a neighbor that already has them.


Also DOJ grants aren't "free" and I'm not sure my tax dollars should go to that use either. And that is a strange claim for me to make since my agency (holds my reserve commission) has boats, APCs, helicopters, and fixed wing aircraft...
You left out the training required for proficiency. Not familiarization, but proficiency.

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Re: Private University LEOs

#43

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:11 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:In the case of the Va Tech shooter armed students and professors makes more sense than militarized cops who show up after the fact.
Absolutely right! These folks are the first responders and because of absurd state laws, they unarmed first responders. That's a recipe for disaster.

It amazes me that anti-gunners and some COPs can argue for full auto weapons on a school campus, yet argue that an adult student, teacher or professor with a handgun creates too large of a risk of collateral damage. When an argument is so devoid of any connection to reality, it is no longer a rationale for a position, it's a lie.

Chas.


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Re: Private University LEOs

#44

Post by MeMelYup » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:27 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:In the case of the Va Tech shooter armed students and professors makes more sense than militarized cops who show up after the fact.
Absolutely right! These folks are the first responders and because of absurd state laws, they unarmed first responders. That's a recipe for disaster.

It amazes me that anti-gunners and some COPs can argue for full auto weapons on a school campus, yet argue that an adult student, teacher or professor with a handgun creates too large of a risk of collateral damage. When an argument is so devoid of any connection to reality, it is no longer a rationale for a position, it's a lie.

Chas.
I think it makes sence, a little anyway. A police officer wants to go into a shooting situation with full knowledge the bad person is the only person with a firearm. They don't want the waters muddied by other people having a firearm so they won't have to think about their response. Look at most of the targets they use. If it has a gun you shoot, not is the target pointing the gun. If it doesn't have a gun don't shoot. In a possible shooting situation they don't want to have think.

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Re: Private University LEOs

#45

Post by VMI77 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:04 pm

MeMelYup wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:In the case of the Va Tech shooter armed students and professors makes more sense than militarized cops who show up after the fact.
Absolutely right! These folks are the first responders and because of absurd state laws, they unarmed first responders. That's a recipe for disaster.

It amazes me that anti-gunners and some COPs can argue for full auto weapons on a school campus, yet argue that an adult student, teacher or professor with a handgun creates too large of a risk of collateral damage. When an argument is so devoid of any connection to reality, it is no longer a rationale for a position, it's a lie.

Chas.
I think it makes sence, a little anyway. A police officer wants to go into a shooting situation with full knowledge the bad person is the only person with a firearm. They don't want the waters muddied by other people having a firearm so they won't have to think about their response. Look at most of the targets they use. If it has a gun you shoot, not is the target pointing the gun. If it doesn't have a gun don't shoot. In a possible shooting situation they don't want to have think.
Sorry, but not having to think is a recipe for disaster.
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