When does a school zone end?

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srothstein
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#16

Post by srothstein » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:54 pm

puma guy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:05 pm
I knew I had read the code somewhere on this and I found it.
Can you tell me what code section you found it at? When I saw the post, I went looking through the Transportation Code and could not find the section on school zones. I did not do an extensive search though and I thought the answer might be in the traffic markings manual, which I do not have access to right now.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#17

Post by WTR » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:26 pm

A co-worker of mine many moons ago received a ticket as she was passing out of a school zone. She began accelerating back up to speed when the nose of her car passed the end of school zone sign. The over zealot Motorcycle Patrolman told her she needed to wait until the rear end of her car cleared the zone,,,,,,,,stood up in court too.


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Re: When does a school zone end?

#18

Post by Bruin98 » Wed May 01, 2019 4:26 am

WTR wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:26 pm
A co-worker of mine many moons ago received a ticket as she was passing out of a school zone. She began accelerating back up to speed when the nose of her car passed the end of school zone sign. The over zealot Motorcycle Patrolman told her she needed to wait until the rear end of her car cleared the zone,,,,,,,,stood up in court too.
Yes, zones begin and end at signs but it's actually s little more complicated than that.

They begin when your front bumper breaks the line/plane of sign one and end when your back bumper breaks the line/plane of sign two.

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Jusme
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#19

Post by Jusme » Wed May 01, 2019 5:42 am

puma guy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:05 pm
Jusme wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:20 pm
There should be no speed limit signs inside a school zone. Once you enter a school zone, it continues until other notice of speed is given. If they have a black and white 40 mph sign, with no disclaimer such as except during school zone hours, driving at that speed is legal. It sounds like you may have either driven through two separate school zones, one that I know of is on 377 Benbrook highway on the SW side of Fort Worth, or they have intentionally set up an illegal speed trap. A legal speed limit sign, with no disclaimer, has force of law, and if you are ticketed, it can be easily dismissed, with photographic evidence. More than likely, the officer, did not know, that there were two separate zones. I would contact their supervisor, and explain the situation. Others, may get tickets, when none is deserved. JMHO
Thanks! I should've read your post before I replied to Excaliber. I knew I had read the code somewhere on this and I found it. You reaffirm what I just read on the subject. I think it may be a purposeful thing in Deer Park and I saw the same thing in South Houston. South Houston recently altered a SZ I frequently drive and they have two regular speed signs posted within the zone. It used to be set up on "normal" fashion. I didn't really go into detail about the officer's demeanor in my OP, but she was quite arrogant, especially when I asked her about the law of posting a normal speed sign within the SZ. She said she doesn't have to know the law. I was taken aback with that remark, was expecting a ticket and was surprised when she let me off.

Yeah it sounds like she was unhappy at being assigned school zone duty. And being questioned, only added to her already bad mood. I would definitely contact her supervisor, and let them know about her response as to not needing to know the law. Law enforcement is made even more difficult, if you are not versed on laws, you are hired to enforce. I'm sure others were also stopped for the very same reason, and possibly ticketed, when they were not in violation.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#20

Post by puma guy » Wed May 01, 2019 9:43 am

srothstein wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:54 pm
puma guy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:05 pm
I knew I had read the code somewhere on this and I found it.
Can you tell me what code section you found it at? When I saw the post, I went looking through the Transportation Code and could not find the section on school zones. I did not do an extensive search though and I thought the answer might be in the traffic markings manual, which I do not have access to right now.
(c) Schools.

(1) A regular speed zone must not change within the limits of a school speed zone since posting of a regular speed zone sign at the point of change would prematurely terminate the school speed zone. This is due to the fact that speed limits remain fixed until a revised limit is encountered.
Texas Administrative Code
TITLE 43 TRANSPORTATION
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER 25 TRAFFIC OPERATIONS
SUBCHAPTER B PROCEDURES FOR ESTABLISHING SPEED ZONES
RULE §25.23
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#21

Post by QB » Wed May 01, 2019 11:37 am

There's a regular speed limit sign between the beginning and ending school zone signs on Marsh. First time I encountered it I sped up a d then saw the ending school zone sign. Based on the above quoted rule, it appears the regular speed limit sign does cancel out the school zone limit and I suspect a ticket would be thrown out (maybe). And I would hope they would move the regular speed limit sign. Just to avoid any issues with the police and courts, I now make sure I maintain the school zone limits until I see an ending sign. But it's good to know the rule as quoted above.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#22

Post by puma guy » Wed May 01, 2019 4:19 pm

Video of stretch of road with 40 MPH speed limit sign within a school zone.


Last edited by puma guy on Wed May 01, 2019 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#23

Post by RoyGBiv » Wed May 01, 2019 4:58 pm

puma guy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:56 pm
twomillenium wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:51 pm
I believe the officer needs some retraining, I asked three different LEO friends at three separate times and they all three said the last speed zone sign you pass is the one of record.
:thumbs2:
:thumbs2:

Thanks for the info. Learned another something new today.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#24

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:06 pm

puma guy wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:43 am
srothstein wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:54 pm
puma guy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:05 pm
I knew I had read the code somewhere on this and I found it.
Can you tell me what code section you found it at? When I saw the post, I went looking through the Transportation Code and could not find the section on school zones. I did not do an extensive search though and I thought the answer might be in the traffic markings manual, which I do not have access to right now.
(c) Schools.

(1) A regular speed zone must not change within the limits of a school speed zone since posting of a regular speed zone sign at the point of change would prematurely terminate the school speed zone. This is due to the fact that speed limits remain fixed until a revised limit is encountered.
Texas Administrative Code
TITLE 43 TRANSPORTATION
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER 25 TRAFFIC OPERATIONS
SUBCHAPTER B PROCEDURES FOR ESTABLISHING SPEED ZONES
RULE §25.23
Regarding the part I bolded, what about a situation where you turn off of one road and onto another? Are you required to know the speed limit for that new road, before being able to see a speed limit sign. Specifically consider a situation (common in Houston) where you turn right from a Freeway access road, speed limit 50 mph, and onto a residential street that has a speed limit of 35 mph, but no signs posted until the road goes around a curve. Also, the residential street T's into the access road (if that matters).

I've always wondered about this situation.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#25

Post by puma guy » Wed May 01, 2019 6:45 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:06 pm
puma guy wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:43 am
srothstein wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:54 pm
puma guy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:05 pm
I knew I had read the code somewhere on this and I found it.
Can you tell me what code section you found it at? When I saw the post, I went looking through the Transportation Code and could not find the section on school zones. I did not do an extensive search though and I thought the answer might be in the traffic markings manual, which I do not have access to right now.
(c) Schools.

(1) A regular speed zone must not change within the limits of a school speed zone since posting of a regular speed zone sign at the point of change would prematurely terminate the school speed zone. This is due to the fact that speed limits remain fixed until a revised limit is encountered.
Texas Administrative Code
TITLE 43 TRANSPORTATION
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER 25 TRAFFIC OPERATIONS
SUBCHAPTER B PROCEDURES FOR ESTABLISHING SPEED ZONES
RULE §25.23
Regarding the part I bolded, what about a situation where you turn off of one road and onto another? Are you required to know the speed limit for that new road, before being able to see a speed limit sign. Specifically consider a situation (common in Houston) where you turn right from a Freeway access road, speed limit 50 mph, and onto a residential street that has a speed limit of 35 mph, but no signs posted until the road goes around a curve. Also, the residential street T's into the access road (if that matters).

I've always wondered about this situation.
I have as well. There are times when you could turn on to a stretch in a school zone w/o knowing until you see a sign. Since I didn't get a citation I don't need a defense, but when I was negotiating with the union or problem solving I'd think about a situation in reverse. I would ask the cop if the regular speed sign said 15MPH inside the school zone would I be to required to slow to 15 MPH?
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#26

Post by srothstein » Wed May 01, 2019 9:10 pm

puma guy wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:43 am
Texas Administrative Code
TITLE 43 TRANSPORTATION
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER 25 TRAFFIC OPERATIONS
SUBCHAPTER B PROCEDURES FOR ESTABLISHING SPEED ZONES
RULE §25.23
[/quote]

Thanks. I hadn't looked in the administrative code.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#27

Post by puma guy » Thu May 02, 2019 8:22 am

srothstein wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:10 pm
puma guy wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:43 am
Texas Administrative Code
TITLE 43 TRANSPORTATION
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER 25 TRAFFIC OPERATIONS
SUBCHAPTER B PROCEDURES FOR ESTABLISHING SPEED ZONES
RULE §25.23
Thanks. I hadn't looked in the administrative code.
[/quote]
You're welcome.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#28

Post by Russell » Thu May 02, 2019 10:19 am

anygunanywhere wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:33 pm
Deer Park is notorious for speed traps and other revenue enhancement shenanigans.

There is an excellent traffic ticket attorney in Deer Park. His name is Kenneth Bradshaw. His website was Deer Park Law but for some reason it isn’t coming up. He has handled multiple tickets for me and SWMBO. Matter of fact my last ticket was in Deer Park for speeding on Hwy 225. I was a tad in excess of the posted limit. Mr Bradshaw gets me adjudication every time. He got a ticket that Mrs Anygun got from DPS in Galveston County dismissed. There is a reason his office is in DP.
Is there a reason to use an attorney to request this vs just filling out the form most counties have for you to request it yourself?
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#29

Post by anygunanywhere » Thu May 02, 2019 2:58 pm

Russell wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:19 am
anygunanywhere wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:33 pm
Deer Park is notorious for speed traps and other revenue enhancement shenanigans.

There is an excellent traffic ticket attorney in Deer Park. His name is Kenneth Bradshaw. His website was Deer Park Law but for some reason it isn’t coming up. He has handled multiple tickets for me and SWMBO. Matter of fact my last ticket was in Deer Park for speeding on Hwy 225. I was a tad in excess of the posted limit. Mr Bradshaw gets me adjudication every time. He got a ticket that Mrs Anygun got from DPS in Galveston County dismissed. There is a reason his office is in DP.
Is there a reason to use an attorney to request this vs just filling out the form most counties have for you to request it yourself?
When I get a ticket I go to his office, pay his fee, and never have to do anything. He sends me a letter telling me the disposition. He tries to get it dismissed as in my wife’s case. He does all the work. As long as I don’t get a ticket in the next 6 months I’m good. I don’t get many. He is worth his fees.
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Re: When does a school zone end?

#30

Post by chasfm11 » Fri May 03, 2019 8:32 am

While the police officer involved should understand the law, ultimately the entity who placed the signs is responsible to do so legally. I hold myself and anyone else who knows about violations by cities for notifying them in writing about the errors. Doing this before receiving a citation adds credibility. Of course, sometimes it falls on deaf ears.

There is a 6 lane, limited access highway in our area that is zoned at 50mph and local law enforcement vigorously patrols it for speed violations. I contacted one of the city council about it and he said that the speed limits were "set by the State". That's fine except that as soon as that road passes into a neighboring town, the speed limit increases to 55mph. I asked him of the State did that, too.
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