CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[Manfred]

Apparently, Scott knew the store employees were alarmed by seeing his carry weapon. Was it worth it for him to "win" an argument with a store employee over his right to carry legally? Was it wise to allow such a situation to escalate to the point that it caused store employees to evacuate the store? Was it worth it in this case for Scott to wait until the incident escalated to police involvement? Would it have been a wiser decision on his part to simply leave the store immediately upon being confronted by store employees, and never shop there again?

A-men! Do I have a right to carry - Yes, is carrying a firearm a controversial subject that a great many do not understand because their only education on the subject is TV and their own conjecture - Yes. Therefore it is my responsability to make sure I do not cause panic or confusion. Also, while carrying it is not my job (or a good idea) to educate the public on carry rights.

2cents---

[baldeagle]

Apparently, Scott knew the store employees were alarmed by seeing his carry weapon. Was it worth it for him to "win" an argument with a store employee over his right to carry legally? Was it wise to allow such a situation to escalate to the point that it caused store employees to evacuate the store? Was it worth it in this case for Scott to wait until the incident escalated to police involvement? Would it have been a wiser decision on his part to simply leave the store immediately upon being confronted by store employees, and never shop there again?

According to his girlfriend, Erik was surprised to see police at the entrance and asked her why they were there. According to Erik's father, who visited the scene and has talked to multiple witnesses, a Costco employee was "helping Erik" put bottles in his cart. So the idea that Erik was or should have been aware that he was the focus of all the activity is in dispute. It's entirely possible that Erik had no idea what was happening. Only an investigation and a full airing of all witness testimony might clarify what, if any, responsibility Erik bears for his own death.

[baldeagle]

As this event evolves, it's interesting to see the shift in coverage.

The day of the shooting: Officers fatally shoot armed man at Summerlin Costco.

Three days later: Friend defends man killed by police at Costco, new details emerge

Today: Costco Shooting Victim To Be Buried Saturday

Since Erik is now being characterized as a victim, will the media aggressively investigate this incident?

[philip964]

In the movies you always remember the line "drop the gun". Last night it was Whoopie Goldberg on TV in Jumping Jack Flash. She has a gun pointed at victims when the police burst in with guns drawn and they say the line. Naturally in the movies to advance the plot Whoopie complies and she is arrested.

Apparently we should realize the new rules are: see a gun and get shot by the police, in the link below, it is clearly a police mistake, but the lesson in both of these situations is that if the police see a gun, for any reason good bad or otherwise, you might get shot.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... e0318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And how the mood on this story has changed, the first line of the burial story for Eric is " A 21-gun salute is scheduled for the funeral of a West Point graduate shot and killed by Las Vegas Metro police outside a Costco store"

RIP

[Beiruty]

$5.7 mil is not too much, I would have asked 20 mill payed over 10 yrs.

[mgood]

Each of the eye witnesses said he didn't have a gun in his hand and wasn't doing anything that indicated he was going for a gun. The "ear witnesses" heard different things, so there's no reliability there. I hope there is a video of this event. At this point, I don't buy the LEO's stories.

That's my initial take after just reading the first page.




And after reading nine pages, my opinion hasn't changed much.

[baldeagle]

Someone has posted what purports to be the radio traffic for the call. Either Erik was behaving completely out of character or the Costco employees blew the situation completely out of proportion.

EDIT: Some people questioned the veracity of the transcript. This post on the Nevada Shooters Forum points to the archive of the radio traffic and a download of that traffic that you can play yourself. According to the Costco employee(s?) that called 911, the police were expecting a man with a gun, possibly high on drugs or emotionally disturbed, who was destroying merchandise, acting erratically and refusing to leave. That is quite a bit different from the description witnesses have given of the scene. I imagine police would have been on high alert, and any action on Erik's part other than hands over his head would have been interpreted as a threat. The Costco folks put the police in an untenable position.

[Pinkycatcher]

How would video muddy the waters?

Video shows only what happened in front of the camera, and only from one angle. It does not show what happened before or after, or out of view. It does not show things from the point of view of people on the ground.

This problem has existed since practical photography was developed. People take a photo or now video as "proof." It is nothing of the sort. It can be biased and subjective, even if not outright fabricated.

- Jim

Very true, but I would expect video that Cotsco has to show what happened inside the store, both as he was exiting, and most likely what happened when he talked with the employee, and when he checked out. Also I would expect the store to show what happened in the incident proper, granted only from one view, but possibly more. Have you ever seen a walmart parking lot? They have a cluster of 3 cameras arranged on the roof covering the lots at about ever 40-50 foot intervals, I don't know what Cotsco has, but often cameras now-a-days are cheap enough that a store would have little problem having overlapping video.

So you are right, but I do think my argument has merits also. Again, this is all up in the air and we just don't know enough.

Someone has posted what purports to be the radio traffic for the call. Either Erik was behaving completely out of character or the Costco employees blew the situation completely out of proportion.

I think the video from inside the store will show which one it was, I hope Cotsco employees didn't blow it out of proportion as that is generally not a good thing and shows lack of control of a situation.

[seamusTX]

I've observed that stores have a lot of video cameras now, and they are pretty high quality. I hope as much as anyone participating in this thread that the video (a) is preserved and (b) exonerates the late Mr. Scott.

However, I won't be surprised if the video is as ambiguous as all the other evidence that has come out so far.

- Jim

[Pinkycatcher]

Someone has posted what purports to be the radio traffic for the call. Either Erik was behaving completely out of character or the Costco employees blew the situation completely out of proportion.

EDIT: Some people questioned the veracity of the transcript. This post on the Nevada Shooters Forum points to the archive of the radio traffic and a download of that traffic that you can play yourself. According to the Costco employee(s?) that called 911, the police were expecting a man with a gun, possibly high on drugs or emotionally disturbed, who was destroying merchandise, acting erratically and refusing to leave. That is quite a bit different from the description witnesses have given of the scene. I imagine police would have been on high alert, and any action on Erik's part other than hands over his head would have been interpreted as a threat. The Costco folks put the police in an untenable position.

I just read the transcript, though I didn't listen to the actual radio, but I could easily see that the Cotsco employees called and gave highly elevated series of events. On the low end it could have gone like this:

Erik was tearing open a package to see if it fit or how it feeled, with the intention of buying (I've done it before) and an employee noticed and raised an alert, Erik could have been crouching low to the floor for whatever reason (I do that all the time in stores) and been printing. This employee then alerted the chain of command who escalated the situation, yelling could have just raising the voice, I've yelled at employees before when they get particularly dense. Erik could have been in a Catch-22, leave the store and be arrested for shoplifting/destruction of property, or pay for merchandise and be arrested for failure to conceal/trespassing, so he had no good options. The police responded to a crazed man with a gun yelling and acting crazy and since they were young (24 months on the job is the oldest, and with a prior incident) had too much going on in their heads.

Or obviously the Cotsco employees could have been telling the whole truth and Erik did break character and go bezerk

[OldSchool]

If the comments are true, then the LEO's were already placed on edge prior to the encounter, ready to do whatever it took to defend the public from this reported "madman." In fact, a CHL can never be certain that the same type of call did not initiate their own encounter, nor be certain that his/her particular LEO was adequately prepared for that encounter.

I suspect I will be much more naturally fearful of any LEO encounter from this time forward. Not ready to defend myself, of course, but much less the calm, relaxed and self-assured citizen with whom I'm sure the LEO's prefer to interact. I may find myself trying to avoid LEO contact (even if they are friends), and I have never felt that way before!

[Beiruty]

I am thinking about contacting our PD's public relationship Sgt. and pointing to the incident in LV, and inquire about procedure and methods dealing with a "man with gun" (CHLer) calls. In addition, if the our PD can share with us expected behavior under such circumstances.

[baldeagle]

I am thinking about contacting our PD's public relationship Sgt. and pointing to the incident in LV, and inquire about procedure and methods dealing with a "man with gun" (CHLer) calls. In addition, if the our PD can share with us expected behavior under such circumstances.

I think it would be an excellent idea if every city had liaisons between the PD and someone who holds a CHL. Eventually maybe this should even be formalized through some organization. We need CHLers to understand police procedures and expectations, and we need to know if there are training procedures that can result in better outcomes going forward.

[WildBill]

I've observed that stores have a lot of video cameras now, and they are pretty high quality. I hope as much as anyone participating in this thread that the video (a) is preserved and (b) exonerates the late Mr. Scott.

However, I won't be surprised if the video is as ambiguous as all the other evidence that has come out so far. - Jim

I believe that this is going to be the crucial evidence to determine what acually happened inside the Costco store.

[seamusTX]

I believe that this is going to be the crucial evidence to determine what actually happened inside the Costco store.

Everyone who has seen Twelve Angry Men knows how ambiguous evidence can be. Or perhaps recall the Rodney King video and its aftermath.

- Jim