Unhappy LEO CHL Experience

[casingpoint]

A sidebar--If you're hauled in for any reason, do game wardens handcuff you, and do they cuff you in the front or the back, and with or without a lifejacket on if conveyance is by boat?

[McKnife]

If we are out on a boat do we automatically give up our right to unreasonable search and seizure? Do we have a right to deny them the right to board?

BINGO!

I don't boat.. but I still wonder, what is their reasonable suspicion for detaining (boarding) you and probable cause for searching your vessel?

US waters are still US, right? Or does Nazi Germany own them?

[srothstein]

One of my complaints with our system is that most people seem to accept some infringement on our rights if the laws are written that way. The law is currently written to allow peace officers (specifically game wardens and others trained as marine safety officers) the authority to pull over any boat, board it, and check for safety equipment. I have always thought this is an infringement on our Fourth Amendment rights, but then I am told I am being the unreasonable one.

Anyway, for those curious, chapter 31 of the Parks and Wildlife Code governs boating and the specific section I am refering to says:

31.124. INSPECTION OF VESSELS.
(a) In order to enforce the provisions of this chapter, an enforcement officer may stop and board any vessel subject to this chapter and may inspect the boat to determine compliance with applicable provisions.
(b) An officer boarding a vessel shall first identify himself by presenting proper credentials.
(c) The operator of a vessel required by this chapter to hold a certificate of number aboard the vessel shall show the
certificate to the officer on demand, and failure to do so constitutes a violation of this chapter.
(d) No person operating a boat on the water of this state may refuse to obey the directions of an enforcement officer when the officer is acting under the provisions of this chapter.
(e) The safety of the vessel shall always be the paramount consideration of an arresting officer.
(f) If an enforcement officer determines that a vessel and its associated equipment is being used in violation of this chapter or of any regulation or standard issued thereunder so as to create an especially hazardous condition, he may direct the operator to return to mooring, and the vessel may not be used until the condition creating the violation is corrected.

And to return to the original poster's points, I recommend a letter to the agency internal affairs (or office of professional responsibility I think they call it now) with the points covered, with a copy to their academy director. You can file the complaint on his behavior if you desire, but you can request both sides make sure he and the other wardens know your responsibilities under the law correctly. I doubt much will come of the complaint, but it will help if he has a record of behavior problems or is starting to accumulate that record.

[JasonH]

If we are out on a boat do we automatically give up our right to unreasonable search and seizure? Do we have a right to deny them the right to board?

It wasn't mandatory but I took a coast guard training class to become certified several years ago when I started boating. I was told that the coast guard or game wardens could board and search my vessel at any time for inspection.

[CHL/LEO]

I was told that the coast guard or game wardens could board and search my vessel at any time for inspection.

Or a certified Marine Safety Officer. Dallas PD has three patrol boats on Lake Ray Hubbard. A MSO must be part of the crew at all times so as to be in compliance with that requirement.

In a previous life I was in the Coast Guard and was a member of a BOSDET (Boating Safety Detachment) team that operated on lakes and rivers in the Middle Tennessee area. There was a MSO (Marine Safety Office) based in Nashville and that was their primary mission. About all we did was stop and inspect vessels for safety compliance. It was a tough job but someone had to do it.

[anchor44]

Possum Cops have some authority that other LEO's don't have. Specifically, they can come on your property( like a ranch) and look for signs of poaching, illegal hunting etc., without your permission or a warrant.

[Liberty]

Possum Cops have some authority that other LEO's don't have. Specifically, they can come on your property( like a ranch) and look for signs of poaching, illegal hunting etc., without your permission or a warrant.

More powerful than a well written constitution.

[tallmike]

Possum Cops have some authority that other LEO's don't have. Specifically, they can come on your property( like a ranch) and look for signs of poaching, illegal hunting etc., without your permission or a warrant.

More powerful than a well written constitution.

Able to leap 4th ammendments with a single bound. =)

[LedJedi]

sux man, i've had negative experiences with game wardens down in that area too man. I would definitely put in a letter, but maybe take Flint's advice on it. More flies with honey and all that. That's how I was able to get heard with the whole Verizon thing.

in either case, let us know how this follows up.

[rm9792]

Possum Cops have some authority that other LEO's don't have. Specifically, they can come on your property( like a ranch) and look for signs of poaching, illegal hunting etc., without your permission or a warrant.

But as discussed in a previous thread, their scope is limited and still must be at least probable. Warden cant come onto my city lot looking for illegal deer hunting for example as deer arent likely to be on a 1/4 acre lot.

[bdickens]

Possum Cops have some authority that other LEO's don't have. Specifically, they can come on your property( like a ranch) and look for signs of poaching, illegal hunting etc., without your permission or a warrant.

More powerful than a well written constitution.

Able to leap 4th ammendments with a single bound. =)

Faster than a speeding warrant!

[stevie_d_64]

CHL/LEO brought up a good point, and the statute posted about the inspection of vessels is very useful as well...

The one question/c omment I have is that the "Game Warden" immediately took on the job as an inspector of equipment and other safety issues regarding your vessel...And not acting in the capacity as a "Game Warden"...I too would be concerned that this might be acting outside their capacity, and not first requiring the production of a fishing or hunting license as IS part of their job to enforce...

The Coast Guard are the only ones I know that can board a vessel and inspect in this case or capacity...

I worked with the CG while in the Navy out in San Diego...Their LAWDets (Law Enforcement Detachments) deployed with us while we were working the territorial waters in that area...Pretty straight forward work...And in no way did it go beyond safety, inquiring to port or origin, and destination...If there were any tattle-tales to any suspicious drug related activity, we stood back and let them do their thing...That simple...

As far as the "Game Warden" issue goes, I agree with helping the situation and remind their chain of command that the procedure in making the contact, that they need to establish who everyone is first and foremost, and at that time is where we are required to inform by producing that little piece of plastic...After that, if they want to go off and lecture, thats their own deal...I'd just smile, not say a word, and let them have their say so...

But thats just my opinion...

[boomerang]

If a public servant expresses his personal opinion to me, he's giving me permission to express my personal opinion to everyone up his chain of command.

[stevie_d_64]

If a public servant expresses his personal opinion to me, he's giving me permission to express my personal opinion to everyone up his chain of command.

Clever!

You da boomeranggggg!!!

[rm9792]

If we are out on a boat do we automatically give up our right to unreasonable search and seizure? Do we have a right to deny them the right to board?

BINGO!

I don't boat.. but I still wonder, what is their reasonable suspicion for detaining (boarding) you and probable cause for searching your vessel?

US waters are still US, right? Or does Nazi Germany own them?

Not that I agree with this but.....I believe their defense would be that you agreed to waive your rights by paying to register your boat. Kind of like registering your car gives them rights to require things from you. Boats arent normally needed, most are pleasure craft so it wouldnt fall into life necessitys.