Hiring a lawyer

So, your CHL Application has been filed and the clock has slowed to a crawl - tell us about it!

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HGWC
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Re: Hiring a lawyer

Post by HGWC »

wackjum wrote:I think we are fortunate to live in a state like Texas that has shall issue, as opposed to may issue.
The law has lots of shalls written into it, but the DPS appears to think those don't apply to them.
I have already addressed this in my previous post, but there is no fundamental right to be able to carry your gun around with you. At least not at the 2nd amendment level.
No, you're probably right. I'm sure the authors of the state and US constitutions thought they only needed their guns in their homes. Read it again one more time. It says keep and bear.
Once you realize that a CHL in Texas is a privilege and not a right, you might understand why your case is not very strong.
That's ridiculous. The state can't grant a fundamental right. It can only infringe upon it. We have a fundamental right to keep and bear arms, period. That isn't granted as a privilege by any government. The state has only infringed upon our rights by limiting it to only CHL and only under other onerous and unreasonable restrictions. Where do you get this privilege concept? You're like the third person I've heard that from.
If it was an inalienable right, government cannot regulate it much. There are only a handful of these rights. Freedom of speech and expression, the right to peacefully assemble, the right to free religion and association. Things that many people think are rights, such as driving, are privileges.
It's a fundamental right. it's been treaded on, but it's still no driver's license.

Texas CHL laws might stand a chance if unrestricted open carry weren't prohibited, but with the combination of heavily restricted CHL and no open carry, the Texas laws will only stand assuming no incorporation of the 2nd. That's all we're missing, and it could be accomplished in one lawsuit, just like in Chicago. Then the Texas laws will fall just like DC and Chicago.
HGWC
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Re: Hiring a lawyer

Post by HGWC »

wackjum wrote: (3) notify the applicant in writing that the department is unable to make a determination regarding the issuance or denial of a license to the applicant within the 60-day period prescribed by this subsection and include in that notification an explanation of the reason for the inability and an estimation of the amount of time the department will need to make the determination.
BTW, when they state in their letter that the delay is indefinite, they haven't complied with this section of the law either.
wackjum
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Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Hiring a lawyer

Post by wackjum »

I had a more detailed post written up, but it never submitted.

Here are my final comments on this matter.

HGWC, you have your interpretation of the 2nd amendment. However, it is not the current intepretation by the USSC. It is possible that one day, the social mores may change to the point that the 2nd A could be read to mean an inalienable right to carry arms everywhere. Currently, that is not the interpretation.

The Heller decision gave USSC backing to the status quo. This is, to be able to possess guns, and to be able to use them (keep and bear). Anything else is dependent upon interpretation. In your post, you said that the 2nd amendment "clearly" "implies" possession in public.

This is not in the 2nd Amendment. The 2A does not make any distinction between home, public, or private property, and open or concealed carry. Instead, it has the line "a well regulated militia," which opens the door for regulation.

The right, as far as Heller goes, is a right to purchase and keep firearms around your home. They should be allowed to be kept in a state of readiness to be used (bear).

It was not my intention, in responding to this thread, to defend the 2nd amendment. I wanted to provide my perspective on a lawsuit. Any action regarding CHL is not a 2nd amendment violation but a violation of the Texas statute. If you were denied a CHL even though you met all of the requirements, then you would have an action because the statute commands the State to issue the permit. A delay is not a denial. If there was some kind of instruction or informally understood procedure by the state to keep people waiting for forever, this may be construed as a constructive denial. But the evidence does not show that. Instead, it is just being slow. Further, it is not purposefully slow, but based on a reason (manpower shortage, funding shortage, Hurricane Ike). Now you and I may both realize DPS is not taking things terribly seriously, but this would be difficult to prove.

Heller could have been much worse. Instead, it gave us the status quo. Don't make a mile out of an inch.
CHL Class: 6/7/08
Mailed to DPS: 6/10/08
Received by DPS: 6/12/08
Processing: 8/13/08
Contacted Tx Sen. Dan Patrick: 12/12/08
Call from Sen. Patrick's office: 12/19/08
Call from DPS auditor: 12/19/08
Call from DPS auditor: 12/29/08
License Completed and Issued: 1/2/09
HGWC
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Re: Hiring a lawyer

Post by HGWC »

wackjum wrote: HGWC, you have your interpretation of the 2nd amendment. However, it is not the current intepretation by the USSC. It is possible that one day, the social mores may change to the point that the 2nd A could be read to mean an inalienable right to carry arms everywhere. Currently, that is not the interpretation.
This is more about the fourteenth amendment isn't it? What the Supreme court has said is that the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to the states at all, only to the federal government. When the issue of incorporation is settled, then all of the state laws that were passed even during the development of the fourteenth amendment will be looked at for the first time. That's exactly what's happening already in Nordyke and the Chicago case.
The Heller decision gave USSC backing to the status quo. This is, to be able to possess guns, and to be able to use them (keep and bear). Anything else is dependent upon interpretation. In your post, you said that the 2nd amendment "clearly" "implies" possession in public.
Apparently, other constitutional lawyers disagree with you. For example, the Nordyke case is directly associated with possessing handguns on public property, and they are raising similar issues as to just what laws the state can pass.
This is not in the 2nd Amendment. The 2A does not make any distinction between home, public, or private property, and open or concealed carry. Instead, it has the line "a well regulated militia," which opens the door for regulation.
That's right it doesn't make any distinction. It says we have the right period, and the Heller case said we have the right individually and for self defense. What, we have the right to self defense in private but not public? I don't think the SC has ever ruled that the 2nd amendment excluded public keep and bear. On the contrary, it's purpose is recognized as to allow the civilian militia to defend against oppression by the government. You can't do that from your backyard.
The right, as far as Heller goes, is a right to purchase and keep firearms around your home. They should be allowed to be kept in a state of readiness to be used (bear).
So, you're saying the Heller decision defines the 2nd amendment such that we have a right to defend our freedoms and our very life from only within our homes? Maybe you need to give it a second glance. It doesn't say that at all. It defines the 2nd amendment as a fundamental individual right for self defense and for defense of the country and our freedoms. It applied that definition to the DC laws and found them unconstitutional. The SC hasn't applied that same definition to a state law banning public possession of handguns, but the same definition would necessarily have to apply. You're suggesting that the Heller decision now enables Congress to pass a law all but flat out barring any public possession of any firearms without running afoul of the 2nd amendment, which just ain't so.
It was not my intention, in responding to this thread, to defend the 2nd amendment. I wanted to provide my perspective on a lawsuit. Any action regarding CHL is not a 2nd amendment violation but a violation of the Texas statute. If you were denied a CHL even though you met all of the requirements, then you would have an action because the statute commands the State to issue the permit. A delay is not a denial. If there was some kind of instruction or informally understood procedure by the state to keep people waiting for forever, this may be construed as a constructive denial. But the evidence does not show that. Instead, it is just being slow. Further, it is not purposefully slow, but based on a reason (manpower shortage, funding shortage, Hurricane Ike). Now you and I may both realize DPS is not taking things terribly seriously, but this would be difficult to prove.
I understand what you're saying. There's all sorts of case law that doesn't impose the 2nd amendment on the states, and that underlies many of your comments. That is about to change though, and Texas could lead the way with one lawsuit. Then there is the standard for scrutiny of state laws against an incorporated 2nd amendment. I may be on shakier ground here in all of my complaints, but Heller made it clear that restricting the right from felons and the mentally unstable would stand. Minor impositions perhaps like registration may stand. Regulations against machine guns might stand, but flat out bans on handguns won't.

What Texas has is just as onerous and restrictive as these other states. It's just the difference between public and private, and the 2nd amendment doesn't allow for such a distinction. It doesn't allow for infringement for every whim of the legislation with a view of controlling crime like it says in the Texas constitution. It's a fundamental right that has not ever been defined as limited to either public or private. It's a right period, not a privilege governed by the whim of the legislators. Some people are indefinitely denied the right altogether to publicly possess the most popular firearm for self defense. All it takes is incorporation, and that won't stand under any standard of scrutiny. One lawsuit could address that.

All of this not to mention state law or the state constitution. Keep and bear is also a fundamental individual right in our state constitution. Granted it's more limited, but it doesn't allow the executive branch of the government to infringe on our rights beyond what the legislature has deemed necessary to control crime. They are exceeding the legislature's power to limit our right that is guaranteed in the state constitution. The legislature lifted the restriction on CHL, and we're entitled to all of our right that they've left us with. Every tiny little bit of it. It's not a fishing license. It's a fundamental right even under our state constitution.
Heller could have been much worse. Instead, it gave us the status quo. Don't make a mile out of an inch.
It doesn't take us all the way where I want to go, but it puts us within reach and that's not just status quo. It's not a minor change in the legal landscape.
obt
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Re: Hiring a lawyer

Post by obt »

Here is what worked for me:

The law is clear; DPS has 60 days unless they write and tell you there will be a delay and how long to issue or deny a CHL. this letter gives them 30 more days. If after 90 days the DPS fails to issue or fails to deny then the law says it is a denial. One denied you are able to aks for a hearing before a local judge and he would most likly order the license issued if there were no ploblems.

So... My application went in August 11 and I got a letter right after IKE that said my application was delayed indefinately. At 90 days I wrote DPS telling them that as they had not issued a CHL and had not denied It then the law says thier inaction constitutes denial. I asked for a hearing. A few days later DPS called me and said they had no denied me a CHL ; I of coures dissagreed and told them I was planning a civil liberty lawsuit. At 120 days the DPS would not return my calls on 2 occasions. So, I wrote them an email asking for the status of my hearing. I aso sent an email asking the DPS for any documents under the freedom of information act that expressed a leagal opinion that DPS did not need to comply with the time requirements in the CHL law. I must have found a Jugglar because I got a email back saying allow just a little more time and I would have a license. This was Friday and then I got a phone call from DPS asking if I wanted the plastic overnighted or in regular mail. I didn't want to sign for the overnite so the CHL arrive by regular mail.

How ai feel about this. I think the DPS department that handles CHL is understaffed and DPS is probably doing what it can under the circumstances. Is it right; I don't think so. The law is clear and DPS is not complying with the time lines in the law. I think that a class action civil liberties lawsuit should be filed. I think that is all it would take for DPS to get it together. On the other hand if they can get by just oiling the squeeeky wheels like me then they can get by understaffed and underfunded and most all the fees we pay for CHLs can go into the general coffer.

I challenge someone to get the NRA or some civil liberties organization on board with this problem and file that motivating lawsuit. As for me I got my license December 12 right at 4 months, and the DPS sucessfully removed me from the equation.

Good Luck all you guys out the waiting and waiting.
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