Texas Open Carry – Positive

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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

shootthesheet wrote:. . . Also, to argue that CHL will be negatively affected from the acceptance of unlicensed open carry is just false. The law that opens the state up to OC would be totally separate from the CHL laws. And if a business owner posts their property with 30.06 it wouldn't be binding on OC anyway.
There is no way to say this, since there is no open-carry bill. The draft that was to be prepared was going to require a CHL, but merely remove the concealment requirement. So the bill would not be "totally separate from the CHL laws."
As for a 30.06 sign not being binding on open-carry, you could not be more wrong. The legislature would amend 30.06 to apply to both open-carry and concealed-carry, so every business that wanted to keep people from openly carrying will post a 30.06 sign. CHLs would most definitely be impacted.
shootthesheet wrote:I think it is nothing more than fear that compels some opponents to OC just like it is and was fear that compelled people from not wanting CHL.
Were you here in Texas in the 1995 to 1997 time frame? If so, then you must remember the near panic that came with the then-new CHL statute and the proliferation of generic "no-gun" signs.

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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by flintknapper »

"Charles L. Cotton" wrote:
There is no way to say this, since there is no open-carry bill. The draft that was to be prepared was going to require a CHL, but merely remove the concealment requirement. So the bill would not be "totally separate from the CHL laws."
As for a 30.06 sign not being binding on open-carry, you could not be more wrong. The legislature would amend 30.06 to apply to both open-carry and concealed-carry, so every business that wanted to keep people from openly carrying will post a 30.06 sign. CHLs would most definitely be impacted.
Are our legislators not smarter than this? Why in the world would they make Siamese twins of it?

A simple solution that would address everyone's concerns would be to require a 6" X 6" sticker (ghostbuster style) with the letters "OC" on it to be displayed.

Any business NOT wanting OC could post this in a conspicuous place (just like the 51% sign). Business's not wanting either CC or OC would post the 30.06 sign AND the ghostbuster sticker together. Business's willing to allow CC but NOT Open Carry could simply post the OC, business's allowing both would not post anything.

How hard would that be? Those with a carry license would only need to watch for: 51%, 30.06 and OC. Anyone that can remember their phone number could do that right?

Maybe we need different legislators...if they can't figure that out.

Is there some legal aspect of this I am overlooking? If not...then I would expect our legislators and anyone drafting a "bill" to use that grey matter God gave them and come up with a reasonable and simple solution to this.



Were you here in Texas in the 1995 to 1997 time frame? If so, then you must remember the near panic that came with the then-new CHL statute and the proliferation of generic "no-gun" signs.
I was....and I remember how quickly those signs came down as well. The fact is....there aren't all that many places that are posted today. I don't know if the same thing would hold true for open carry, but I feel that citizens and businesses would quickly get over their unfounded fears about it. Much would depend upon how well the subject was presented and to what degree the public is educated beforehand.
Spartans ask not how many, but where!
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by frazzled »

shootthesheet wrote:
Also, to argue that CHL will be negatively affected from the acceptance of unlicensed open carry is just false. The law that opens the state up to OC would be totally separate from the CHL laws. And if a business owner posts their property with 30.06 it wouldn't be binding on OC anyway. I think it is nothing more than fear that compels some opponents to OC just like it is and was fear that compelled people from not wanting CHL. The states that do not regulate or loosely regulate OC do not have problems with it in any amount that would cause them to do away with it. And I will be so bold as to write that unlicensed OC will come to Texas. Maybe it will take a decade or two but it will pass. I base that on the national movement to apply the 14th Amendment to the States as well as that time eases the concerns of the general population. Also, I will not stop supporting it until we get it because that is our civil right.


nitrogen wrote:
Captain Matt wrote:"shall not be infringed"

:patriot:
Why do you not think business owners couldn't post signs banning ALL firearms? Why do you think they are going to go to that level of granularity. It goes against common sense.

Your argument about states with OCs:
How many of those states have areas with 4mm+ people in them? We four cities in Texas with over one million people. This is not rural areas where everyone knows everyone and people are peaceable. Lets get real here.
EDIT: as noted in the parallel thread, I'm much more ok if OC were permitted, with local jurisdictions being able to vote it out. If rural counties want to retain I'm much more ok in that regard, whereas the cities could keep it illegal. A blanket OC mandate that can't be influenced by local norms/laws just is not going to work.
Last edited by frazzled on Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by frazzled »

Were you here in Texas in the 1995 to 1997 time frame? If so, then you must remember the near panic that came with the then-new CHL statute and the proliferation of generic "no-gun" signs.

Chas.
In the building we were in before we moved the bank below us had a sign in brass-no firearms. It wasn't 30.06 but was brass and a nice keepsake. When they had big whigs come in (it was a foreign bank) they would point it out with a big welcome to Texas and ask 'em to check their guns at the door hah hah.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by Conagher »

Thanks for everyone's reply.

I would like to try and move us back a little closer to the orginal question if I may. Any more suggestions on how we get this item as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project for the 2011 legislative session?

Thanks & Have a Nice Day!

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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by Conagher »

frazzled wrote:
How many of those states have areas with 4mm+ people in them?
Hi frazzled. I did a quick search to try to answer your question for you. Currently there are 44 states that allow some form of open carry. Those 44 states represent over 75% of the US population, or roughly one-quarter of a billion people that currently enjoy this 2A freedom. Below are a few of the states with populations over 4mm:

LA: 4.4M
VA: 7.1M
PA: 12.4M
MI: 10.1M
OH: 11.4M
IN: 6.3M

Hope this helps!

Thanks & Have a Nice Day!

Conagher
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by nitrogen »

I used to live in Arizona, an open carry state, around 6m people. I lived in Phoenix, whose metro area is home to 4m people.

Witnessing open carry in Phoenix, and subsequently freaking out began my journey toward pro-gun-ism.
.השואה... לעולם לא עוד
Holocaust... Never Again.
Some people create their own storms and get upset when it rains.
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frazzled

Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by frazzled »

Arg another post eaten.

Thanks Conagher. This raises the big question for me.
For OC supporters, how is this going to be handled by municipalities? Will local jurisdictions have the right to limit OC, or is it statewide? IE Can the city of Houston Limit OC, but Montgomery County be just fine with it?
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by Keith B »

frazzled wrote:Arg another post eaten.

Thanks Conagher. This raises the big question for me.
For OC supporters, how is this going to be handled by municipalities? Will local jurisdictions have the right to limit OC, or is it statewide? IE Can the city of Houston Limit OC, but Montgomery County be just fine with it?
That is a good question frazzeld. Many states don't have preemption and a local municipality (city or town or burg or whatvever) can set local rules that override state law. It is that way where I grew up in Missouri. And it is a real nightmare trying to determine where you could and couldn't carry.

However, I lived there 38 years and travel back frequently and have RARELY seen anyone carrying in a town, legal or not. The 3 times I remember someone carrying in town (town of about 15K, but draws many more from a wide rural area) have caused a 'man with a gun' call to police; two of which I was one of the officers responding to the call.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

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flintknapper wrote:Are our legislators not smarter than this? Why in the world would they make Siamese twins of it?

A simple solution that would address everyone's concerns would be to require a 6" X 6" sticker (ghostbuster style) with the letters "OC" on it to be displayed.
That would be very workable and it makes sense to gun owners who want to carry, either openly or concealed. However, the vast majority of our pro-gun legislators are not active shooters, nor do they carry a gun for self-defense. The business lobby is extremely strong, as shown by their ability to kill parking lot bills for two sessions. They will scream for a one-sign-fits-all to prohibit guns on private property and the legislature will agree with them, in all likelihood. Otherwise, businesses will have to post the big ugly 30.06 sign and something else. If we ever get open-carry, I would argue for two different signs, with no specifics for the sign to prohibit open-carry. In other words, the ghost-buster signs would work for open-carry, but a 30.06 sign would be required to prohibit concealed-carry. Unfortunately, my argument will most likely fail for the reasons I've stated. Business and the business lobby will argue that it's absurd to require the posting of two signs and they will win that argument.

I assure you, I'm already working on ways to implement open-carry, if it becomes a TSRA project, but I see a lot of hazards. I've said this before, I agree with Stephen that TPC Ch. 46 should be repealed in its entirety, but I won't live to see it. It will take more years to accomplish than I have left. This will probably surprise most folks, since I oppose open-carry, but if it passes, I think it should be unlicensed open-carry. Otherwise, LEOs will have probable cause to stop everyone carrying openly to see if they have a CHL. In my view, this would serve to increase the negative backlash from the general public, by fostering the idea that anyone carrying a gun is a threat, until the police confirm otherwise. That is not a message we want to send.
Were you here in Texas in the 1995 to 1997 time frame? If so, then you must remember the near panic that came with the then-new CHL statute and the proliferation of generic "no-gun" signs.
flintknapper wrote:I was....and I remember how quickly those signs came down as well. The fact is....there aren't all that many places that are posted today. I don't know if the same thing would hold true for open carry, but I feel that citizens and businesses would quickly get over their unfounded fears about it. Much would depend upon how well the subject was presented and to what degree the public is educated beforehand.
The generic no-guns signs didn't start coming down until we passed HB2909 in 1997 (effective 9/1/97) that established TPC §30.06. The now famous 30.06 sign is big, it's ugly and most businesses don't want that thing on their doors. That's why we see so few of them and why we see some that have the proper language, but don't meet the size requirements and/or don't have the required Spanish version. The establishment of TPC §30.06 was very result-oriented and it has worked great. The panic ended not because we educated anyone, but because people don't see us carrying our guns.

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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by flintknapper »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
flintknapper wrote:Are our legislators not smarter than this? Why in the world would they make Siamese twins of it?

A simple solution that would address everyone's concerns would be to require a 6" X 6" sticker (ghostbuster style) with the letters "OC" on it to be displayed.
That would be very workable and it makes sense to gun owners who want to carry, either openly or concealed. However, the vast majority of our pro-gun legislators are not active shooters, nor do they carry a gun for self-defense. The business lobby is extremely strong, as shown by their ability to kill parking lot bills for two sessions. They will scream for a one-sign-fits-all to prohibit guns on private property and the legislature will agree with them, in all likelihood. Otherwise, businesses will have to post the big ugly 30.06 sign and something else. If we ever get open-carry, I would argue for two different signs, with no specifics for the sign to prohibit open-carry. In other words, the ghost-buster signs would work for open-carry, but a 30.06 sign would be required to prohibit concealed-carry. Unfortunately, my argument will most likely fail for the reasons I've stated. Business and the business lobby will argue that it's absurd to require the posting of two signs and they will win that argument.

I assure you, I'm already working on ways to implement open-carry, if it becomes a TSRA project, but I see a lot of hazards. I've said this before, I agree with Stephen that TPC Ch. 46 should be repealed in its entirety, but I won't live to see it. It will take more years to accomplish than I have left. This will probably surprise most folks, since I oppose open-carry, but if it passes, I think it should be unlicensed open-carry. Otherwise, LEOs will have probable cause to stop everyone carrying openly to see if they have a CHL. In my view, this would serve to increase the negative backlash from the general public, by fostering the idea that anyone carrying a gun is a threat, until the police confirm otherwise. That is not a message we want to send.
Were you here in Texas in the 1995 to 1997 time frame? If so, then you must remember the near panic that came with the then-new CHL statute and the proliferation of generic "no-gun" signs.
flintknapper wrote:I was....and I remember how quickly those signs came down as well. The fact is....there aren't all that many places that are posted today. I don't know if the same thing would hold true for open carry, but I feel that citizens and businesses would quickly get over their unfounded fears about it. Much would depend upon how well the subject was presented and to what degree the public is educated beforehand.
The generic no-guns signs didn't start coming down until we passed HB2909 in 1997 (effective 9/1/97) that established TPC §30.06. The now famous 30.06 sign is big, it's ugly and most businesses don't want that thing on their doors. That's why we see so few of them and why we see some that have the proper language, but don't meet the size requirements and/or don't have the required Spanish version. The establishment of TPC §30.06 was very result-oriented and it has worked great. The panic ended not because we educated anyone, but because people don't see us carrying our guns.

Chas.

The "panic" STARTED...for the same exact reason.

What a sad state of affairs. When I was a kid (even a teenager), you could walk around just about anywhere with a long-gun and no one would give you a second look. I could easily have taken a weapon (pistol,rifle,knife,etc) to school as a visual aid (teacher's permission) and everything would have been fine. Now, look where we are today. It sickens me.

Reduced to "social lepers" because we failed to "educate" our children, teachers, families, friends about the correct use of firearms. We all stood by and allowed liberals to teach our children untruths. We all watched Hollywood introduce levels of violence in movies, TV shows, etc....never before seen...or tolerated (all in the name entertainment). Moral decay has produced a segment of society (ever growing) that has no regard for human life or the welfare of others. This segment regularly misuses firearms....and WE pay the price.

Yet....on occasion we have an opportunity to regain a right that has been lost, a chance (if nothing else) to plant a seed, to EDUCATE, to promote and advance a pro-gun stance, but most of us cower at the prospect. Happy to "just hold on" to what we have. That attitude is why I made the comment in another post...that if this is the feeling of most gun owners...then we have already lost everything. One person....thought my view "fatalistic", I think it was an honest evaluation.

Thank you Charles, for all that you do combat this. We may disagree about when/where and methods, but I know you are a fighter. I wish every gun owner was.
Spartans ask not how many, but where!
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

flintknapper wrote: What a sad state of affairs. When I was a kid (even a teenager), you could walk around just about anywhere with a long-gun and no one would give you a second look. I could easily have taken a weapon (pistol,rifle,knife,etc) to school as a visual aid (teacher's permission) and everything would have been fine. Now, look where we are today. It sickens me.
I think that may have depended upon were one lived. I went to elementary school and middle school in Pasadena Texas from 70-75 and High school in Plano Texas from 75-79. Neither place would it have been acceptable to walk up and down the streets carrying a rifle. Neither place would have permitted a firearm be brought to school either.

The olden days you speak of must have been in the more rural communities. The big cities don't seem real OK with brandishing weapons in public. I think mainly because in the cities, there isn't a whole lot of perceived need in squirrel and rabbit hunting.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by LarryH »

03Lightningrocks wrote:I went to elementary school and middle school in Pasadena Texas from 70-75 and High school in Plano Texas from 75-79. Neither place would it have been acceptable to walk up and down the streets carrying a rifle. Neither place would have permitted a firearm be brought to school either.
The other factor is WHEN. I believe flintknapper is about my age, so his growing-up years would have been in the late fifties and/or early sixties. Lots of people's attitudes toward lots of things were different "back in the good old days, when I was young".
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by flintknapper »

03Lightningrocks wrote:
flintknapper wrote: What a sad state of affairs. When I was a kid (even a teenager), you could walk around just about anywhere with a long-gun and no one would give you a second look. I could easily have taken a weapon (pistol,rifle,knife,etc) to school as a visual aid (teacher's permission) and everything would have been fine. Now, look where we are today. It sickens me.
I think that may have depended upon were one lived. I went to elementary school and middle school in Pasadena Texas from 70-75 and High school in Plano Texas from 75-79. Neither place would it have been acceptable to walk up and down the streets carrying a rifle. Neither place would have permitted a firearm be brought to school either.

The olden days you speak of must have been in the more rural communities. The big cities don't seem real OK with brandishing weapons in public. I think mainly because in the cities, there isn't a whole lot of perceived need in squirrel and rabbit hunting.

If Austin, TX is your defintion of "rural" then what is the "big city"?
Spartans ask not how many, but where!
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by shootthesheet »

Didn't it take some 10 years for TX to get CHL into law? I never implied it would be this session or with this group of elected servants or "Pro-gun" types writing a bill. If Texans accept a bill that will tie OC to CHL then yes, we will have major problems and that is the dream of every anti-gun person working to stop us from exercising this civil right as well as the privilege of CHL. I do hate to say but the arrogant attitudes of the moderates in control of this issue will be pushed back into their own faces when the states are forced to obey the Second Amendment to the COTUS. My attitude is that I don't care what the leaders of the cities in this state say. They will not have a choice but to actually accept that people of this state have rights they have no control to oversee or dispense. I do understand the attitudes of the elitist urbanites of this state not wanting the less well off being able to carry a firearm. It keeps them in power and their fear mongering affective. We must let every person know that no government has any say over what law abiding people do with their civil rights. Have I used the term "Civil Rights" enough for the leftists and moderates to understand? Would anyone here want the state to demand a license to exercise freedom of religion or to vote? How are our 2A rights any less than that? Is it because some people in past generations claimed they have power over those rights? I see this as much of an insult and crime as when our state denied people their rights because of their color or sex.

Texas should be leading the way in restoring the full civil rights to all people in this state. Not continuing the same old tired practice of trying to "CONTROL" anyone who is not rich and powerful enough to buy their privileges. We can sell this issue as freedom or we can buy this issue as one more way for the rich, white men of this state to be able to protect themselves while the poor and/or non-white just have to live with being the next victim. I am a white, male, Conservative and I am ashamed of anyone who thinks themselves more important than those who are not able to pay to protect themselves. That is my opinion.
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