JFK Shooting, possible?

[marksiwel]

I think the question isn't about distance or difficulty, its about the number of shots fired in the time frame they were fired. Is it possible for one man to do it? And of course, the path of the magic bullet.

This is what I mean

[MoJo]

I was a senior in Spanish class when the Principal announced on the PA that the President was shot. Later he came back on and said the President had died and that school was dismissed.

[The Annoyed Man]

I think the question isn't about distance or difficulty, its about the number of shots fired in the time frame they were fired. Is it possible for one man to do it? And of course, the path of the magic bullet.

This is what I mean

3 shots in six seconds. 1st shot starts the clock. 2nd shot at 3 seconds. 3rd shot at 6 seconds. 1 shot every 3 seconds on a bolt rifle is consistent with a trained rifleman. 1st shot misses, he gets the range, and he hits with shots 2 and 3. Oswald had been a rifleman in the Marine Corps. In other words, he was trained. I don't know the manual arms for the Carcano rifle which Oswald used, but the official rate of fire for a M1903A3 Springfield is 20 rounds per minute, or 1 shot every three seconds. And Oswald's Carcano had a scope on it, versus the irons on the Springfield.

Totally doable.

[cougartex]

Just out of curiosity, where were you when Walter Cronkite announced that the President had been shot in Dallas, Texas?

I was in the 2nd grade, our teacher told us.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

The JFK murder has fascinated me for years. I have usually
leaned towards the "more than Oswald shooting scenario".

The LA County prosecutor, Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote a recent book on the JFK
killing concluded that Oswald was the lone gunman, and the reason
that many people believe that he did NOT act alone is that they can't
believe a drifter/loser like Oswald was able to 86 a US President, without help.

IIRC, although Oswald was trained in marksmanship in the service, I
don't believe that he achieved the highest proficiency rating. Contrast
that with his time in the Eastern Bloc. He went hunting with some friends
and they said he wasn't a good shot at all. Was he faking? Was he a bad shot?

Some investigators who test-fired a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle came to the
conclusion that working the bolt + re-acquiring JFK's head in the scope,
while following a moving car, would not be doable in the time frame indicated.
The timeline is unclear and open to further speculation.

IMHO, the last shot, which blows JFK's forehead off, appears to come from the grassy
knoll, though I am also aware that the massive head wound could have been an
exit wound.

It's incredible to me that a US President is killed in broad daylight, in front of
thousands of witnesses, many of whom had still cameras and movie cameras,
and all we have today is the Zapruder film, and a few stills.

SIA

[seniorshooteress]

I was in school and the announcement came over the PA system. Best president we ever had in my opinion. I have read a lot on the assaination and I am one of those conspiracy people who think that Oswald was a patsy and that he really didn't work alone. IMO some government wanted JFK out of the way cause he was doing too much in the way of putting an end to the cold war etc. There are people out there that make fortunes from countries (ours) being at war some place. I am wondering, do I dare even post this for fear someone thinking me looney tunes? Ah why not. Everyone has an opinion, may as well put mine out there. Does any one remember the tv show "Homicide-Life on the Streets"? Richard Belser was also into conspiracy theories.

[boomerang]

Have any of you guys read this? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312080743/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What did you think?

Summary at wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[lancermit]

Just out of curiosity, where were you when Walter Cronkite announced that the President had been shot in Dallas, Texas?

I was five months old, probably in the arms of my mother. I'm just glad she didn't drop me on my head when she heard the news! Oh... wait...

Nevermind.

[C-dub]

Wasn't another problem that the back of his head was opened wide up from the second shot? Doesn't that indicate a shot from a different direction?

I love the magic bullet/lugi theory explained on Seinfeld.

BTW, not born for another two years.

[Keith B]

There have been 3 or 4 recreations of the event that have tested if it could have been done, and yes it could. A couple even went through the conspiracy theorists most popular theories such as Oswald was seen in the building cafeteria within 1.5 minutes of the shooting and not out of breath, but they proved it could easily have been done. They also tested where he was seen by witnesses walking over in Oak Cliff after the event. Some say he couldn't have made it there that fast on foot, but they proved he could have. They also disproved the theory of additional shooters from the storm drain or grassy knoll. Final verdict IMO is Oswald was the shooter no question about it.

[Rex B]

Talking about JFK today and someone told me that they read somewhere the JFK shooting wasnt possible.

So I ask you shooters, do you think it was an unlikely shot or do you think it was doable?

Just out of curiosity, where were you when Walter Cronkite announced that the President had been shot in Dallas, Texas?

I lived on a ranch north of Kerrville...I had just come back to the house from a morning of deer hunting. Let's see, I was 16 years old and no I wasn't playing hooky from school, I had declared it an official personal hunting holiday the night before.

Do you have witnesses that can verify your whereabouts on that morning??

[Rex B]

I was in 6th grade at Walker AFB elementary school in Roswell NM.
My teacher was a retired Army captain, Mr. Fox -tall, gaunt, darkly tanned. He told us just as we were about to go to lunch.
That man was white as a ghost, and on the verge of tears. We stayed in the gym and watched the one TV in the school, then went home early.
Of course most of our dads were on alert the next few days.

One of the Dallas TV stations replayed the entire TV footage, no commercials, a few years ago.
That was an eerie flashback, watching that just like it was live. Still have the tape.

[The Annoyed Man]

There have been 3 or 4 recreations of the event that have tested if it could have been done, and yes it could. A couple even went through the conspiracy theorists most popular theories such as Oswald was seen in the building cafeteria within 1.5 minutes of the shooting and not out of breath, but they proved it could easily have been done. They also tested where he was seen by witnesses walking over in Oak Cliff after the event. Some say he couldn't have made it there that fast on foot, but they proved he could have. They also disproved the theory of additional shooters from the storm drain or grassy knoll. Final verdict IMO is Oswald was the shooter no question about it.

I agree 100%, and the problem with conspiracy theories is that they tend to run afoul of Occam's Razor. This is a principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity," and therefore that the simplest solution is usually the correct one. The principle is also known as lex parsimoniae, or the law of parsimony.

The problem with building a complex conspiracy theory is that it relies on a collection of secondary suppositions. Each of those suppositions must be proven in turn in order to make the conspiracy true. And if any of those supporting suppositions in turn relies on tertiary suppositions, then each of those must be proven also for that secondary supposition to be valid. Failure to prove any single supporting supposition invalidates the entire theory. Consequently, validation is weighted toward that theory which has the fewest supporting suppositions to be proven.

President Kennedy's assassination is entirely supportable with the provable supposition of a lone gunman, namely Lee Harvey Oswald. Any assassination theory which adds in additional suppositions which in turn have to be supported leads away from a valid answer. These things are axiomatic to the study of logic. In fact, even if one started with the assumption that a cynical conspiracy leader deliberately used Occam's Razor to lead investigators away from pursuing a complex theory in favor of the simple explanation, that assumption would be itself subject to a requirement for supporting evidence as proof — and there is no such evidence.

When I say "trained rifleman," I do not mean "sniper." I mean someone who has received basic military training in the use of a rifle, or, the equivalent of that training from hunting experience or something similar. Oswald met that level of training. The sound of all three shots fired are 6 seconds apart, from beginning to end. That means that the first shot starts the clock, and Oswald now has 6 seconds to fire two more shots. Two followup shots, fired 3 seconds apart, is within the capabilities of an average marksman using a bolt action rifle.

surprise_i'm_armed said:

IIRC, although Oswald was trained in marksmanship in the service, I don't believe that he achieved the highest proficiency rating. Contrast that with his time in the Eastern Bloc. He went hunting with some friends and they said he wasn't a good shot at all. Was he faking? Was he a bad shot?

A) Anyone who passes USMC marksmanship requirements is a decent shot. Oswald passed. The "highest proficiency rating" is not a requirement for passing, and it is generally awarded to truly gifted shooters. If you go up to the 6th Floor Museum and look out the window right next to the one Oswald used (you can't look out the actual window as it has been separated off as a protected display), it should convince you that anyone of average rifle shooting skills could have made this shot.

B) If you tend to believe in a conspiracy theory, why would you believe anything the Russians had to say about it? Wouldn't you assume they were trying to misdirect you, since necessarily any Russian, in Russia, who had contact in a social setting with Lee Harvey Oswald at that time in history would have most likely been one of his KGB handlers? Furthermore, Oswald could not own a rifle in Russia. Therefore, it absolutely follows that the rifle he used to hunt with in Russia was loaned to him by someone. How do you know that this rifle was properly zeroed? How do you know whether or not that particular rifle was deliberately DE-accurized by KGB, so as to lend the impression on investigation that their assassin was a poor shot? These are all tertiary suppositions that have to be proven themselves in order to prove the secondary supposition that Oswald was not a sufficient rifleman to make three (only 63 yard) shots (with a scoped rifle) from the 6th floor window of the Texas Schoolbook Depository.

Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy, by himself, from the 6th floor window of the Texas Schoolbook Depository. There just isn't any other credible explanation.

[sjfcontrol]

Talking about JFK today and someone told me that they read somewhere the JFK shooting wasnt possible.

Were they saying he's still alive?

Yeah, JFK is hanging out with Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa...

[ninemm]

...It's incredible to me that a US President is killed in broad daylight, in front of
thousands of witnesses, many of whom had still cameras and movie cameras,
and all we have today is the Zapruder film, and a few stills.

SIA

When I first read this, I didn't interpret the comment as astonishment that there weren't more film documentation of the event. I read it as astonishment that anyone would have access to a clear shot like that. So, based on my first impression, my first thought was that I suspect that the president is exposed almost on a daily basis to the same opportunity. Despite being surrounded by secret service and all of the advance preparations made by others, any number of people could get off a couple of shots before being subdued any time the president is outdoors. This is especially true for a sniper who could hit a grapefruit at 1000 yards. I'm amazed that it hasn't happened many times.

Before the black suited goons in black Suburbans show up at my house, I'd like to say that I don't own a rifle and have zero experience with one.