Post-incident survival - in your own home

[TXlaw1]

In previous threads it was suggested, and I agree, that, if the 911 operator instructs you to lay down your weapon (while you still feel in danger), stop talking, lay down the phone, don't hang up, and continue your armed position guarding yourself until you feel safe enough to lay down your weapon or until an LEO has arrived.

I agree. The 911 operator is NOT a LEO and does not have a view of the scene and only knows what you have told him/her. I don't believe they have authority to issue such an order and I don't think not following that order would have any legal consequences. When you see the LEOs arrive, holster your gun and wait for further instructions. Then, in those few moments, if the BG should attempt to leave, let him go and tell LEOs the description and direction he went.

[Excaliber]

There is some great information in this thread. One question I do have though, that to me seems it could make things easier on the arriving LEO's to not shoot the guy with the gun... What about handcuffs? If properly trained to use 'cuffs, it seems as though you could detain the BG and holster your weapon until LEO's arrive on scene. Your gun is still available if you must have it, but it is holstered and you are not providing a drawn weapon threat when the Officers get there.
I'm not saying that 'cuffing a BG is a safe practice, but if the guy is down and you are unsure if he still could recover and become a threat again, why not? What about if your wife, friend, or anyone at the scene with you can cover the BG while you handcuff them? I understand the danger of engaging the BG one on one physically while cuffing, but it seems like my chances might be better to handcuff him/her than have LEO come in and shoot the "guy with the gun". Assuming that I've already shot and stopped this person, I'm already legally obligated to the situation enough, why have a drawn weapon when police arrive? Depending on the exact situation it might be easier to deal with cuffing someone and let the LEO sort things out.
IANAL or a LEO, so any advice on handcuffs here would help clear this survival incident that I have running through my head.
On a much lighter note, I'm recovering from a major dental surgery and this could just be the medication talking so go easy on me

Although this may seem like a good idea in theory, it works out poorly in practice.

Someone who has attempted or committed a crime serious enough to be held at gun point for almost always has a long history of criminal activity behind him. He most likely also runs with folks who use violence on both victims and each other on an almost daily basis, so he's both proficient and used to it. Furthermore, he's very likely done hard prison time. The term "correctional facility" is a misnomer. Prison is a place where many folks don't do anything other than pump iron, plan crimes, and practice techniques for turning the tables on LEO's who try to handcuff them. Videos of these activities can be found online with a little searching.

In other words, you're probably looking at an experienced street fighter with superior strength and endurance, lightning fast reflexes and lots of nasty moves that can relieve you of both your gun and your life if you're foolish enough to come within the reactive gap (around 6 feet from the subject). Even LEO's face major risk at this point in an encounter with a potentially resistive suspect, and use two or more officers to shift the odds in their favor before attempting to cuff.

Remember that you are not an LEO and are under no obligation to detain or arrest. You would face far less risk allowing him to leave than you would trying to get cuffs on him.

[Excaliber]

In previous threads it was suggested, and I agree, that, if the 911 operator instructs you to lay down your weapon (while you still feel in danger), stop talking, lay down the phone, don't hang up, and continue your armed position guarding yourself until you feel safe enough to lay down your weapon or until an LEO has arrived.

I agree. The 911 operator is NOT a LEO and does not have a view of the scene and only knows what you have told him/her. I don't believe they have authority to issue such an order and I don't think not following that order would have any legal consequences. When you see the LEOs arrive, holster your gun and wait for further instructions. Then, in those few moments, if the BG should attempt to leave, let him go and tell LEOs the description and direction he went.

You and you alone are responsible for your actions at the scene. If you elect to follow poor advice from a dispatcher (who is almost certainly not an LEO) and that leads to disastrous results, he or she gets to say "Oops," and you get to live with the consequences.

[tacticool]

For purposes of this discussion, we're going to assume that you have drawn your gun and fired it and a single BG is disabled but not dead. There are no other BGs. You have the BG at gunpoint, and you have just called 911.

If it's in my home, I know I didn't run out of ammo, so that solves one problem.

[NOS]

There is some great information in this thread. One question I do have though, that to me seems it could make things easier on the arriving LEO's to not shoot the guy with the gun... What about handcuffs? If properly trained to use 'cuffs, it seems as though you could detain the BG and holster your weapon until LEO's arrive on scene. Your gun is still available if you must have it, but it is holstered and you are not providing a drawn weapon threat when the Officers get there.
I'm not saying that 'cuffing a BG is a safe practice, but if the guy is down and you are unsure if he still could recover and become a threat again, why not? What about if your wife, friend, or anyone at the scene with you can cover the BG while you handcuff them? I understand the danger of engaging the BG one on one physically while cuffing, but it seems like my chances might be better to handcuff him/her than have LEO come in and shoot the "guy with the gun". Assuming that I've already shot and stopped this person, I'm already legally obligated to the situation enough, why have a drawn weapon when police arrive? Depending on the exact situation it might be easier to deal with cuffing someone and let the LEO sort things out.
IANAL or a LEO, so any advice on handcuffs here would help clear this survival incident that I have running through my head.
On a much lighter note, I'm recovering from a major dental surgery and this could just be the medication talking so go easy on me

Although this may seem like a good idea in theory, it works out poorly in practice.

Someone who has attempted or committed a crime serious enough to be held at gun point for almost always has a long history of criminal activity behind him. He most likely also runs with folks who use violence on both victims and each other on an almost daily basis, so he's both proficient and used to it. Furthermore, he's very likely done hard prison time. The term "correctional facility" is a misnomer. Prison is a place where many folks don't do anything other than pump iron, plan crimes, and practice techniques for turning the tables on LEO's who try to handcuff them. Videos of these activities can be found online with a little searching.

In other words, you're probably looking at an experienced street fighter with superior strength and endurance, lightning fast reflexes and lots of nasty moves that can relieve you of both your gun and your life if you're foolish enough to come within the reactive gap (around 6 feet from the subject). Even LEO's face major risk at this point in an encounter with a potentially resistive suspect, and use two or more officers to shift the odds in their favor before attempting to cuff.

Remember that you are not an LEO and are under no obligation to detain or arrest. You would face far less risk allowing him to leave than you would trying to get cuffs on him.

Excaliber, thank you for shedding some light on the situation for me. I knew 'cuffing the BG was a risky move, but I really wanted verification of exactly why this shouldn't be an option. As has been discussed so many times before, in the critical moments when you are protecting yourself, your judgment is compromised by the "shock" of the events happening around you. I want to make a set "plan" that keeps me from making a fatal decision in the heat of the moment. Thanks again for your reply

[Excaliber]

There is some great information in this thread. One question I do have though, that to me seems it could make things easier on the arriving LEO's to not shoot the guy with the gun... What about handcuffs? If properly trained to use 'cuffs, it seems as though you could detain the BG and holster your weapon until LEO's arrive on scene. Your gun is still available if you must have it, but it is holstered and you are not providing a drawn weapon threat when the Officers get there.
I'm not saying that 'cuffing a BG is a safe practice, but if the guy is down and you are unsure if he still could recover and become a threat again, why not? What about if your wife, friend, or anyone at the scene with you can cover the BG while you handcuff them? I understand the danger of engaging the BG one on one physically while cuffing, but it seems like my chances might be better to handcuff him/her than have LEO come in and shoot the "guy with the gun". Assuming that I've already shot and stopped this person, I'm already legally obligated to the situation enough, why have a drawn weapon when police arrive? Depending on the exact situation it might be easier to deal with cuffing someone and let the LEO sort things out.
IANAL or a LEO, so any advice on handcuffs here would help clear this survival incident that I have running through my head.
On a much lighter note, I'm recovering from a major dental surgery and this could just be the medication talking so go easy on me

Although this may seem like a good idea in theory, it works out poorly in practice.

Someone who has attempted or committed a crime serious enough to be held at gun point for almost always has a long history of criminal activity behind him. He most likely also runs with folks who use violence on both victims and each other on an almost daily basis, so he's both proficient and used to it. Furthermore, he's very likely done hard prison time. The term "correctional facility" is a misnomer. Prison is a place where many folks don't do anything other than pump iron, plan crimes, and practice techniques for turning the tables on LEO's who try to handcuff them. Videos of these activities can be found online with a little searching.

In other words, you're probably looking at an experienced street fighter with superior strength and endurance, lightning fast reflexes and lots of nasty moves that can relieve you of both your gun and your life if you're foolish enough to come within the reactive gap (around 6 feet from the subject). Even LEO's face major risk at this point in an encounter with a potentially resistive suspect, and use two or more officers to shift the odds in their favor before attempting to cuff.

Remember that you are not an LEO and are under no obligation to detain or arrest. You would face far less risk allowing him to leave than you would trying to get cuffs on him.

Excaliber, thank you for shedding some light on the situation for me. I knew 'cuffing the BG was a risky move, but I really wanted verification of exactly why this shouldn't be an option. As has been discussed so many times before, in the critical moments when you are protecting yourself, your judgment is compromised by the "shock" of the events happening around you. I want to make a set "plan" that keeps me from making a fatal decision in the heat of the moment. Thanks again for your reply

You're more than welcome.

Your efforts to think things through and plan ahead of time so you can make the rapid, solid decisions necessary to come through in one piece are both wise and prudent.

When your thinking slows way down during an actual incident because your cognitive abilities are severely impaired by the neuropsychological effects of a life threatening situation and your mind desperately reaches for a stored plan you've got for handling it, you don't want to get the "404 - Page Not Found" error the folks who rely on "figuring things out when the time comes" see. They tend to discover a bit late that in real life the time windows of opportunity for taking life preserving action come and go much faster than their stress diminished cognitive abilities can manage.

[chasfm11]

Your efforts to think things through and plan ahead of time so you can make the rapid, solid decisions necessary to come through in one piece are both wise and prudent.

When your thinking slows way down during an actual incident because your cognitive abilities are severely impaired by the neuropsychological effects of a life threatening situation and your mind desperately reaches for a stored plan you've got for handling it, you don't want to get the "404 - Page Not Found" error the folks who rely on "figuring things out when the time comes" see. They tend to discover a bit late that in real life the time windows of opportunity for taking life preserving action come and go much faster than their stress diminished cognitive abilities can manage.

This is wonderful guidance. It is a perspective that I've never thought very much about and I'm very grateful to you for providing it.

I credit over 30 years of accident free driving to my continuous analysis of what is going on around me and trying to anticipate what stupid things other drivers might do to me that would cause me to react. That type of thinking has more than once saved me and my family from serious consequences. I have, however, nearly 1M of driving under my belt and have seen all kinds of situations. In a driving situation, assuming that I've clearly seen it, the "page not found" condition isn't very likely.

In dealing the scenario presented in this thread, the game is completely different. I might have intellectually understood what you were saying about the BG practicing to deal with LEOs but didn't connect it to possible actions and outcomes until I read your post. In the kinds of situations that we might face with a BG, I'm as weak as the next guy.

Is there somewhere that I can go to read and understand better? Let me be clear - I have no desire to be or act like an LEO. I'm thinking about purely defensive actions based on scenarios. I agree with you that it would be very easy to come up blank if it is a set of conditions that I haven't thought about. I think I understand that the physically closer I am to a BG, the risker the situation is. But I would worry about separating him from whatever weapon he has (and my expectation that I wouldn't have shot him in the first place if there wasn't a weapon) and not wanting to take the legal risk simply emptying the magazine and removing all doubt. I've removed the immediate threat - he's down. It is what happens from there that I want to mentally explore. And it makes me very nervous about the LEOs showing up to "help me" and my doing something that seemed to make sense at that split second in time but which has disastrous consequences for me. My whole purpose to remain alive when faced with a bad situation, not contribute my own demise.

[Excaliber]

Your efforts to think things through and plan ahead of time so you can make the rapid, solid decisions necessary to come through in one piece are both wise and prudent.

When your thinking slows way down during an actual incident because your cognitive abilities are severely impaired by the neuropsychological effects of a life threatening situation and your mind desperately reaches for a stored plan you've got for handling it, you don't want to get the "404 - Page Not Found" error the folks who rely on "figuring things out when the time comes" see. They tend to discover a bit late that in real life the time windows of opportunity for taking life preserving action come and go much faster than their stress diminished cognitive abilities can manage.

This is wonderful guidance. It is a perspective that I've never thought very much about and I'm very grateful to you for providing it.

I credit over 30 years of accident free driving to my continuous analysis of what is going on around me and trying to anticipate what stupid things other drivers might do to me that would cause me to react. That type of thinking has more than once saved me and my family from serious consequences. I have, however, nearly 1M of driving under my belt and have seen all kinds of situations. In a driving situation, assuming that I've clearly seen it, the "page not found" condition isn't very likely.

In dealing the scenario presented in this thread, the game is completely different. I might have intellectually understood what you were saying about the BG practicing to deal with LEOs but didn't connect it to possible actions and outcomes until I read your post. In the kinds of situations that we might face with a BG, I'm as weak as the next guy.

Is there somewhere that I can go to read and understand better? Let me be clear - I have no desire to be or act like an LEO. I'm thinking about purely defensive actions based on scenarios. I agree with you that it would be very easy to come up blank if it is a set of conditions that I haven't thought about. I think I understand that the physically closer I am to a BG, the risker the situation is. But I would worry about separating him from whatever weapon he has (and my expectation that I wouldn't have shot him in the first place if there wasn't a weapon) and not wanting to take the legal risk simply emptying the magazine and removing all doubt. I've removed the immediate threat - he's down. It is what happens from there that I want to mentally explore. And it makes me very nervous about the LEOs showing up to "help me" and my doing something that seemed to make sense at that split second in time but which has disastrous consequences for me. My whole purpose to remain alive when faced with a bad situation, not contribute my own demise.

Closing distance with a potentially still dangerous adversary who probably won't be real happy that you shot him and who still has a weapon within reach is not a recipe for a happy ending. There are ways to do it, but the better ones require at least 2 trained people, and I couldn't recommend a solo version to the average CHL holder. I wouldn't attempt it myself unless not doing so presented a greater risk of some kind. You'd be much better off thinking in terms of moving yourself to a location where he can't hurt you (preferably either behind him or completely out of his view) to wait for police response.

If you've called in the incident, given your description as the good guy, and, when police arrive you don't have a weapon visible, your hands are clearly empty and kept away from your body, and you don't make any sudden moves that could be perceived as a threat, you'll be fine.

A few good books you might want to look into are:

"In the Gravest Extreme"- Mas Ayoob
"On Combat" - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
"Tactical Reality" - Louis Awerbuck

I hope this helps.

[jester]

a potentially still dangerous adversary who probably won't be real happy that you shot him and who still has a weapon within reach

That sounds like someone suffering from lead deficiency.


Based on my home, the best solution is probably for me to ensconce myself and let the police deal with what's left of an intruder.

A few good books you might want to look into are:

"In the Gravest Extreme"- Mas Ayoob
"On Combat" - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
"Tactical Reality" - Louis Awerbuck

Good suggestions. Mas' book is excellent food for thought, especially if you're mindful of the differences between Texas and the Northeast. Of the three, it's the one I would most recommend to someone who is neither a firearm enthusiast nor martial artist.

[chasfm11]

Just an update and a big, public THANK YOU to Excaliber.

I had read "In the Gravest Extreme" before I applied for a CHL It had been suggested that I read it before I ever considered carrying and I thought that was great advice.

On Ex caliber's advice, I ordered both "A Gift of Fear" and "Tactical Reality". As a result of two day business trip and lengthy airport delays on every flight, I'm nearly 3/4 of the way through "A Gift of Fear" What a great read!!

I haven't found much of the book to even address guns and get the feeling that the author is not a great supporter of the RKBA. But the material the he presents on intuition is outstanding. If the book were given to every battered woman who called LE for help, things could dramatically change in our society.

To me, this book takes situational awareness to a whole new level

Thanks again for the recommendation. I'm looking forward to getting into "Tactical Reality" but it is very different. I think the diversity between the two is eye opening.

Chas

[Excaliber]

Just an update and a big, public THANK YOU to Excaliber.

I had read "In the Gravest Extreme" before I applied for a CHL It had been suggested that I read it before I ever considered carrying and I thought that was great advice.

On Ex caliber's advice, I ordered both "A Gift of Fear" and "Tactical Reality". As a result of two day business trip and lengthy airport delays on every flight, I'm nearly 3/4 of the way through "A Gift of Fear" What a great read!!

I haven't found much of the book to even address guns and get the feeling that the author is not a great supporter of the RKBA. But the material the he presents on intuition is outstanding. If the book were given to every battered woman who called LE for help, things could dramatically change in our society.

To me, this book takes situational awareness to a whole new level

Thanks again for the recommendation. I'm looking forward to getting into "Tactical Reality" but it is very different. I think the diversity between the two is eye opening.

Chas

Chas,

I'm very happy to hear that you found value in some of my reading suggestions.

Author Gavin de Becker is extraordinary in that he has been able to recognize, capture, and reduce to writing things that most people feel but often ignore and can't describe or express. His "The Gift of Fear" is a unique resource of invaluable information for those who want to avoid or survive potential violence in our world.

You are correct that he avoids and even at times advises against armed defense. While he correctly emphasizes doing everything possible to avoid getting into a situation where violence is the only answer, the one major gap in his book is that he avoids answering the question of "What do I do when avoidance fails?" The book is not an end to end solution to the problem of violence, but it is the best and most readable work I know of on consciously using intuition and preconscious awareness as an active part of one's protective efforts.

I believe the reason for Mr. deBecker's aversion to weapons can be found very early in the book, where he describes incidents from his childhood. At one point his mother "accidentally" fired a pistol in his direction, missing his head by such a narrow margin that he heard the "buzz" of its passing. She later shot and killed his stepfather in his presence in their home when he was 10 years old. Events like this at a young age leave indelible marks that no amount of research, education, or logic can fully erase later in life. This does not diminish Mr. deBecker's enormous contribution to personal protection in his writings.

I hope you'll share your observations on "Tactical Reality" when you get around to reading that as well.

[chasfm11]

One of the parts of the book that I just finished reading was where de Becker is to speak to a group of prisoners. After he recounts the 10 year old experiences that you cited, one of the prisoners, who had had similar experiences of physical abuse, drugs in his family, etc. asked "how come you are up there and I'm down here " of de Becker. That is a very interesting thought process. How is it that some kids like de Becker manage to overcome what has got to be a horrific formative period and turn out to be great contributors to society?

I have my own answer. Values. Some people find values in the course of their lives and others succumb to a lack of values and fill that void with drugs, alcohol and many other bad choices.

Trying to tie this all back to the original purpose of this thread, to me it is about examining your values in light of the context of the circumstances that you face. de Becker does an outstanding job of presenting a set of facts and them placing them in different contexts. What I hope that I learned from this thread and the "Gift of Fear" reading is to be aware of the context of the situation. I'm hoping that promotes my own safety and that of my family. I'd hate to successfully deal with a BG in my home only to loose my life to an LEO because I did something that was out of the context that he was expecting. I think these kinds of threads can be constant reminder of the need for that kind of thinking, at least for me.

Chas

P.S. I plan to come back when I've finished Tactical Reality. I have to be honest: the thinking in that book (I've skimmed parts of it) seems much further from the way that I normally think. In the "Gift of Fear" I found myself encouraged that I really had followed my intuition much of the time but the book made the times that I failed to do so much more glaring. de Becker is right - we all have the answers but many times don't want to listen to ourselves.