Would YOU carry?

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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GodnGunz
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by GodnGunz »

Slowplay wrote:
GodnGunz wrote:In my job I face this on a daily basis. Sometimes I can park off the property, other times it becomes a federal crime and I must leave it at home.
Just out of curiosity, could you expand on how sometimes you can park off property and other times it's a federal crime and you must leave it at home? Are you saying your employer requires you to drive and park in places where it's a federal crime to possess a firearm?

I am a contractor. Sometimes its Federal, Sometimes It's a private business. I do not have a fixed place of business. The conditions vary from location to location.
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ScottDLS
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by ScottDLS »

GodnGunz wrote:.

Hoping you consider all things, which you may have.

But I add one last word of serious Legal caution.
Since you have Federal clearances you have singed and sworn oaths to them, tread very carefully .
These in all likelyhood include clauses to the effect that if you “knowingly “ do something that could affect that status of your clearance that you “May” be subjected to Federal prosecution.
You are also obligated to tell on yourself.
I have to report a speeding ticket when it happens.

So if you walk into your next review and say. I knew it was against company policy but I carried a GUN anyway or if that is determined.
That could mean prison.
Could mean a felony. CHL is now gone, right to have a gun now gone.


Hence the “Slippery Slope” morality tale. It’s the way things are.
What is the leap for someone to say “It was wrong for them to tell me I can’t have a GUN at work”.
“It was wrong I faced federal charges” . “I am still going to have a GUN I don't care what the rules are” ?(Sound Familiar)???

Where does it end, all goes back to the original deceit of the matter.


You, agree or not, have “Voluntarily waived a good chunk of your rights
Just like when you went in to the service, same as all of us Vet’s and holders of Fed clearances.




Opinions may vary on the morality. But this is painfully clear.

Food for Thought…
A few points. OP has said that the no guns "policy" came in to effect after he was hired. So he really didn't give his "word" that he would follow that particular policy. Presuming that he doesn't have a written employment contract, who says he agreed to abide by all the employer's (apparently) changing rules?

My company publishes an employee manual and sends it out every so often. It has a list of policies and procedures that employees are supposed to follow, and warns that you can be fired for not following. I guess in effect I've been notified that I can be fired for not following them. But I can tell you for sure that I never gave my word that I would follow them. And I won't. In fact, most "at will" employers will studiously avoid making you sign an "agreement" to abide by the policy manual, lest they create a written contract of employment, and lose their ability to dismiss you "at will".

OP has a TWIC card and possibly Homeland Security background clearance. Unless he's hauling classified loads, he probably doesn't have a DoD security clearance for access to classified information, but let's say he does. How did he "voluntarily waived a good chunk of (his) rights"? At least as they relate to legally carrying a gun?

I am very familiar with the agreements that are signed with the United States as they relate to access to classified information, as I have held some of the highest security clearances while a Navy officer and also recently while contracting for a government agency. Look up SF-312 and you'll find the agreement and see that it has nothing to do with following your private employer's personnel policies or anything else unrelated to classified information.

Why on earth would OP walk into his review and say (to paraphrase)... "I legally carried a concealed handgun while hauling one of your loads in a bad area of Texas. It was legal, but against your policy, so please fire me." Even if he did, how would it have been a crime (unless he had received proper a 30.06 notice)? So where's the potential felony? You're responsible to "tell on yourself" for violating your private employer's policy? I don't think so. I didn't report that I sometimes work from 8:05 to 5:05 instead of 8:00 to 5:00 (as specified in our employee manual) and it never came up in my clearance investigation, even in my polygraph.

What Federal charges would said employee face for carrying a gun in his company's truck while driving (as allowed by state law)? By the way, carrying in a Federal building (other than a courthouse) is a misdemeanor, not a felony...although it IS illegal if the building is posted. Carrying on Federal "property" is NOT automatically a crime, although some property is subject to regulations against carry.

My whole point in the above, is that it is not a moral slippery slope if you obey the law, and you never explicitly agreed to follow some employer's "wants"...sorry rules. You could be fired, but you can be fired for most anything by an "at will" employer and not all the reasons relate to morality or the law.

So to OP. Yes. I would carry where legal, understanding that I could lose my job if discovered.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
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PappaGun
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by PappaGun »

If I am wrong, sorry.

But I think there is a troll running around here.
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"All we ask for is registration, just like we do for cars."
- Charles Schumer
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2up1down
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by 2up1down »

THANKS ScottDLS for your thoughts and taking
the time to carefully read and analyze the postings.
GodnGunz wrote:

You asked if breaking the rules was wrong.
And sorry if that offends you but it is wrong.

It is not a question of thinking oneself morally superior.
It is the truth .
gg, the query posed was a "Would You Carry" not anything more.
I was hoping for some thoughtful responses as to what some of the
members would do (and why) if in a similar situation.

It does not offend me that you have a very fervent opposition to me protecting
my life while violating a company policy. I understand that you would not choose to do so
and I hold no animosity for your position.

Truckers are little different breed then some would imagine. We leave our families and
travel amongst yours on our journeys. Most pride themselves on following the laws of the road.
Even the smallest mistake on our part could result in catastrophic death and or prison.

You will often hear us when speaking to each other say, "You do what you gotta do out here".
And if someone complains about the way you are driving, "You drive your truck,,,, I'll drive Mine"!

Each one of us holds the responsibility to obey the laws of the State of Texas and the Federal Government.
Each one of us will make personal decisions about where and what they do for a living.
I will never violate a firearms law and I will defend myself by all legal means in this State.

So I believe at this point, I'll Drive my truck and ya'll have a nice day. :txflag:
Become a Student of the Law we live under and proficient in the protection of yourself: so you may protect your Family, State and way of Live. Awareness is your first defense, avoidance your first tactic. If engagement is forced, Stop when the threat is gone.
GodnGunz
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by GodnGunz »


A few points. OP has said that the no guns "policy" came in to effect after he was hired. So he really didn't give his "word" that he would follow that particular policy. Presuming that he doesn't have a written employment contract, who says he agreed to abide by all the employer's (apparently) changing rules?

My company publishes an employee manual and sends it out every so often. It has a list of policies and procedures that employees are supposed to follow, and warns that you can be fired for not following. I guess in effect I've been notified that I can be fired for not following them. But I can tell you for sure that I never gave my word that I would follow them. And I won't. In fact, most "at will" employers will studiously avoid making you sign an "agreement" to abide by the policy manual, lest they create a written contract of employment, and lose their ability to dismiss you "at will".

OP has a TWIC card and possibly Homeland Security background clearance. Unless he's hauling classified loads, he probably doesn't have a DoD security clearance for access to classified information, but let's say he does. How did he "voluntarily waived a good chunk of (his) rights"? At least as they relate to legally carrying a gun?

I am very familiar with the agreements that are signed with the United States as they relate to access to classified information, as I have held some of the highest security clearances while a Navy officer and also recently while contracting for a government agency. Look up SF-312 and you'll find the agreement and see that it has nothing to do with following your private employer's personnel policies or anything else unrelated to classified information.

Why on earth would OP walk into his review and say (to paraphrase)... "I legally carried a concealed handgun while hauling one of your loads in a bad area of Texas. It was legal, but against your policy, so please fire me." Even if he did, how would it have been a crime (unless he had received proper a 30.06 notice)? So where's the potential felony? You're responsible to "tell on yourself" for violating your private employer's policy? I don't think so. I didn't report that I sometimes work from 8:05 to 5:05 instead of 8:00 to 5:00 (as specified in our employee manual) and it never came up in my clearance investigation, even in my polygraph.

What Federal charges would said employee face for carrying a gun in his company's truck while driving (as allowed by state law)? By the way, carrying in a Federal building (other than a courthouse) is a misdemeanor, not a felony...although it IS illegal if the building is posted. Carrying on Federal "property" is NOT automatically a crime, although some property is subject to regulations against carry.

My whole point in the above, is that it is not a moral slippery slope if you obey the law, and you never explicitly agreed to follow some employer's "wants"...sorry rules. You could be fired, but you can be fired for most anything by an "at will" employer and not all the reasons relate to morality or the law.

So to OP. Yes. I would carry where legal, understanding that I could lose my job if discovered.

Yep you’re right!!

And withholding information about alcohol use, drugs, a gambling debt, or violating rules in general don't matter either.

The 4th and 5th amendments are just the first 2 rights that come to mind he has signed away to some extent.

I find it unbelievable a former officer is advising there are no Legal means by which you can be prosecuted for withholding information of a serious nature from Clearance granting authorities.

Guns in the work place are not even in the same universe as I go to work late and you know it.

Tell yourself and others it’s Ok, bad advice.

However to all those that have a clearance you should check with OPM, DISCO, and or the issuing agency.

I did not say you would but you most certainly. Can be prosecuted.

The categories of concerns enumerated in the Adjudicative Guidelines are as follows:
a) Allegiance to the U.S.
b) Foreign Influence
c) Foreign Preference
d) Sexual Behavior
e) Personal Conduct
Answer the following question.
Has any of the following happened to you in the last 7 years?
1. Fired from a job.
2. Quit a job after being told you'd be fired.
3. Left a job by mutual agreement following allegations of misconduct.
4. Left a job by mutual agreement following allegations of unsatisfactory performance.
5. Left a job for other reasons under unfavorable circumstances.

f) Financial Considerations
g) Alcohol Consumption
h) Drug Involvement
i) Psychological Conditions: Emotional, Mental and Personality Disorders
j) Criminal Conduct
k) Handling Protected Information
l) Outside Activities
m) Use of Information Technology Systems
This is in place the whole time you are cleared. Yes you have to let them know about any serious issue.

So if you are fired for Guns in the work place or they find out you tried to hide it, better believe they can prosecute.

Lying to the Fed's upfront or by intentional omission of future acts is a felony and a serious one at that.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/47/1001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your point is that Guns in the workplace or serious employee policy violation is not covered and of no concern.
They did not ask me if I drank at work either. But I am sure that would not go over well. (Many folks have lost a clearance over that).
I tend to think bringing GUNS to work against your employers known wishes would make them even less happy with you.
And if an incident occurs well, "Game Over".
I think you need to check on that and not just assume because you were not asked its OK.
Last edited by GodnGunz on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Shoot Straight
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by Shoot Straight »

GodnGunz wrote:If you violate that you should be fired and not whine when you are.
:iagree:

Do what you need to do but be an adult and accept the consequences.
Ride
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ScottDLS
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by ScottDLS »

GodnGunz wrote:
And withholding information about alcohol use, drugs, a gambling debt, or violating rules in general don't matter either.

The 4th and 5th amendments are just the first 2 rights that come to mind he has signed away to some extent.

I find it unbelievable a former officer is advising there are no Legal means by which you can be prosecuted for withholding information of a serious nature from Clearance granting authorities.

Guns in the work place are not even in the same universe as I go to work late and you know it.

Tell yourself and others it’s Ok, bad advice.

However to all those that have a clearance you should check with OPM, DISCO, and or the issuing agency.

I did not say you would but you most certainly. Can be prosecuted.

The categories of concerns enumerated in the Adjudicative Guidelines are as follows:
a) Allegiance to the U.S.
b) Foreign Influence
c) Foreign Preference
d) Sexual Behavior
e) Personal Conduct
Answer the following question.
Has any of the following happened to you in the last 7 years?
1. Fired from a job.
2. Quit a job after being told you'd be fired.
3. Left a job by mutual agreement following allegations of misconduct.
4. Left a job by mutual agreement following allegations of unsatisfactory performance.
5. Left a job for other reasons under unfavorable circumstances.

f) Financial Considerations
g) Alcohol Consumption
h) Drug Involvement
i) Psychological Conditions: Emotional, Mental and Personality Disorders
j) Criminal Conduct
k) Handling Protected Information
l) Outside Activities
m) Use of Information Technology Systems
This is in place the whole time you are cleared. Yes you have to let them know about any serious issue.

So if you are fired for Guns in the work place or they find out you tried to hide it, better believe they can prosecute.
Lying to the Fed's upfront or by intentional omission of future acts is a felony and a serious one at that.
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/47/1001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your point is that Guns in the workplace or serious employee policy violation is not covered and of no concern.
They did not ask me if I drank at work either. But I am sure that would not go over well. (Many folks have lost a clearance over that).
I tend to think bringing GUNS to work against your employers known wishes would make them even less happy with you.
And if an incident occurs well, "Game Over".
I think you need to check on that and not just assume because you were not asked its OK.
I've been through the investigations for security clearances a number of times, and as an officer I had some responsibilities regarding assisting in the investigations of those junior to me. Of course it's a crime to lie or perjure yourself on the SF-86 and/or other investigative forms. But I see nothing in the investigations that asks or requires you to divulge whether you follow all your private employer's internal policies or not. Your suggestion that the adjudicative guidelines regarding suitability for clearance result in some legal obligation to notify the authorities of any perceived concern do not hold water. What law would I be prosecuted under for not bringing up my companies' workplace firearms policies and my adherence (or lack of) thereto? 18 USC 1001 doesn't cut it...It's basically for lying or making false claims, not a failure to notify. And even lying must be about something that's asked about.

In OP's particular example, since the conduct is not illegal (and carrying a gun in accordance with state law is not) then it doesn't really have any bearing on suitability for a security clearance. That's probably why there's nothing in the form about it. In fact, your alcohol use at work probably has little bearing either, unless it was illegal or harmful to your coworkers (I'll grant that in the case of a trucker, it would be). I have occasionally had a drink at lunch while working for my private employer, but then again I work for a European company in sales where this is traditional. While in the Navy, I drank at an official US government function that we held with some officers from a Soviet Navy ship that was in the same neutral port as us (US Navy supplied the booze)....but I digress.

You keep intimating that the violation of some company's personnel policies are a national security suitability issue for clearance holders. I don't agree, and can't I find anything in the security protocols that require self-reporting of such. Sure, if you get fired for something you have to report it when asked, but it's not necessarily a bar to the clearance, just a point for further investigation. Who says a gun in your vehicle while working is a "serious" policy violation? You? In two states, OK and FL you can't legally be fired for it. And in many companies you can be fired for coming to work late, but I don't offer up my occasional tardiness in my SF-86 or clearance interview unless I'm asked directly about it.
Lying to the Fed's upfront or by intentional omission of future acts is a felony and a serious one at that.
What are you talking about? What is "intentional omission of a future acts"? I'm supposed to be psychic and tell them on the SF-86 about an illegal act that I haven't committed yet? Lying on a form is illegal, but you have yet to show where the form asks about compliance with private firms' policies, other than where they HAVE RESULTED in disciplinary action.

To get closer to original topic... OP has a TWIC and probably not a DOD security clearance. You are at virtually no risk for losing a TWIC for anything other than illegal acts or immigration violations. In fact the mobbed up Longshoremen in CA made sure that you could still get one even if you are a convicted felon. Only certain felonies are a bar to the TWIC. A CHL holder carrying a gun in accordance with state law but in violation of his company policy is not breaking the law.

People are accusing you of being a "troll" because your posts indicate a certain self ascribed moral superiority that is not supported by your arguments.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
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Jumping Frog
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by Jumping Frog »

I spent years as the Safety & Compliance Director for a large trucking company. There are two major "gotcha's" I would warn our over the road truck drivers about.

First, we had over the road truckdrivers that would often be out for a month, or even more. When they first left their home, they had no idea where where their travels would take them over the next 4-6 weeks. Hence the gotcha's.

For example, we'd get loads that originated at the Red River Army depot in Texarkana. I had one driver arrested for having a firearm in his truck (found pursuant to a search) while on the Army base. Gotcha.

We would also have loads that delivered in Chicago (for example). You are only protected under FOPA transport rules if you are legally allowed to possess the firearm in both the shipping and consignee states. Suddenly, you have this load to Chicago and you are not allowed to possess a handgun in Chicago. Gotcha. Loads to Chicago, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, etc. Many places can place you at sudden risk of felony arrest.

If you are running a regular scheduled lane, say Dallas to Atlanta and back, then no problem. Carry in the truck and be safe. But if you are running as a "system truck" and could find yourself unpredictably in hostile states or military installations, then the risk isn't worth it. Find a different trucking job.
-Just call me Bob . . . Texas Firearms Coalition, NRA Life member, TSRA Life member, and OFCC Patron member

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GodnGunz
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by GodnGunz »


I've been through the investigations for security clearances a number of times, and as an officer I had some responsibilities regarding assisting in the investigations of those junior to me. Of course it's a crime to lie or perjure yourself on the SF-86 and/or other investigative forms. But I see nothing in the investigations that asks or requires you to divulge whether you follow all your private employer's internal policies or not. Your suggestion that the adjudicative guidelines regarding suitability for clearance result in some legal obligation to notify the authorities of any perceived concern do not hold water. What law would I be prosecuted under for not bringing up my companies' workplace firearms policies and my adherence (or lack of) thereto? 18 USC 1001 doesn't cut it...It's basically for lying or making false claims, not a failure to notify. And even lying must be about something that's asked about.

In OP's particular example, since the conduct is not illegal (and carrying a gun in accordance with state law is not) then it doesn't really have any bearing on suitability for a security clearance. That's probably why there's nothing in the form about it. In fact, your alcohol use at work probably has little bearing either, unless it was illegal or harmful to your coworkers (I'll grant that in the case of a trucker, it would be). I have occasionally had a drink at lunch while working for my private employer, but then again I work for a European company in sales where this is traditional. While in the Navy, I drank at an official US government function that we held with some officers from a Soviet Navy ship that was in the same neutral port as us (US Navy supplied the booze)....but I digress.

You keep intimating that the violation of some company's personnel policies are a national security suitability issue for clearance holders. I don't agree, and can't I find anything in the security protocols that require self-reporting of such. Sure, if you get fired for something you have to report it when asked, but it's not necessarily a bar to the clearance, just a point for further investigation. Who says a gun in your vehicle while working is a "serious" policy violation? You? In two states, OK and FL you can't legally be fired for it. And in many companies you can be fired for coming to work late, but I don't offer up my occasional tardiness in my SF-86 or clearance interview unless I'm asked directly about it.
Lying to the Fed's upfront or by intentional omission of future acts is a felony and a serious one at that.
What are you talking about? What is "intentional omission of a future acts"? I'm supposed to be psychic and tell them on the SF-86 about an illegal act that I haven't committed yet? Lying on a form is illegal, but you have yet to show where the form asks about compliance with private firms' policies, other than where they HAVE RESULTED in disciplinary action.

To get closer to original topic... OP has a TWIC and probably not a DOD security clearance. You are at virtually no risk for losing a TWIC for anything other than illegal acts or immigration violations. In fact the mobbed up Longshoremen in CA made sure that you could still get one even if you are a convicted felon. Only certain felonies are a bar to the TWIC. A CHL holder carrying a gun in accordance with state law but in violation of his company policy is not breaking the law.

People are accusing you of being a "troll" because your posts indicate a certain self ascribed moral superiority that is not supported by your arguments.

Really?

Because it does not explicitly say "Don't violate your companies no GUN policy" that’s your take...

Sad and typical DADT approach to security clearances.

Ok follow the bouncing ball.

I have a clearance. I knowingly violate my companies no gun policy. Someone at work finds out. That someone is up to no good. That someone starts to blackmail me.
I start to do bad things because I do not want to lose my job.

I wonder why I would be legally bound to tell someone, humm can't think of a reason nope?

Humm I wonder how normally good folks get dragged into these things. Oh yea by doing stuff they know is wrong and concealing it.

Your example of it’s just a bla bla level clearance , Oh really. Humm maybe he just halls Jp-4, maybe his company deals with much bigger fish. Maybe he could if pressured get classified info.
Uhh Oh now we have a national security risk on our hands.

The minimum screening to get the clearance I am sorry to say is not the end.
Why do they ask us all this stuff. To see if we had a life ? Nope they want it all on the table so it can not be used against you for coercion.

I am amazed I need to explain this to someone with an obvious clearance background.
Going around saying "Well they did not ask" its not a crime go ahead is just foolish.

Yes felons can have a clearance, its what they do in the future that counts.
You logic puts our country at risk and yes they can prosecute keep on saying . "Well it's not on the form"

Yes his level possibly a slap , loss of clearance, they can take it as far as they want however. (He has become a threat to security, He did not tell them, oops)

The language around clearance both the investigation and on going conditions is written to cover all bases and not detail the infinite possibilities one by one.

Why again "He was not breaking any Law" just a company policy. Someone found out and used it to do bad stuff.
Yep they did not ask me up front so it’s ok.

Think again people before you do something that puts our nation’s security, your job, and freedom's at risk.
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2up1down
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by 2up1down »

Jumping Frog wrote:I spent years as the Safety & Compliance Director for a large trucking company. There are two major "gotcha's" I would warn our over the road truck drivers about.

First, we had over the road truckdrivers that would often be out for a month, or even more. When they first left their home, they had no idea where where their travels would take them over the next 4-6 weeks. Hence the gotcha's.

For example, we'd get loads that originated at the Red River Army depot in Texarkana. I had one driver arrested for having a firearm in his truck (found pursuant to a search) while on the Army base. Gotcha.

We would also have loads that delivered in Chicago (for example). You are only protected under FOPA transport rules if you are legally allowed to possess the firearm in both the shipping and consignee states. Suddenly, you have this load to Chicago and you are not allowed to possess a handgun in Chicago. Gotcha. Loads to Chicago, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, etc. Many places can place you at sudden risk of felony arrest.

If you are running a regular scheduled lane, say Dallas to Atlanta and back, then no problem. Carry in the truck and be safe. But if you are running as a "system truck" and could find yourself unpredictably in hostile states or military installations, then the risk isn't worth it. Find a different trucking job.

Thanks JumpingFrog you are exactly correct,
I should have mentioned that I have been on a dedicated run in Texas for almost 2 years.
And frankly the scenarios you mentioned are in my opinion exactly why the Company put in the restriction.

I do have personal knowledge of a Driver who was legally carrying in a particular state that was dispatched
to a Military Installation. He simply called the guard house ahead of time and the MPs simply secured his weapon
upon arrival and returned it when he left.

Driver's your mileage may vary, but whatever you do, DO NOT try and take it on base.
My personal experience on that side of the fence,, we will find it and you will be arrested.


THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THIS TOPIC,
Thanks to everyone who replied with their opinions.
Each one was very valuable to me.

Please don't be so concerned that I am some kind of criminal in the making,
let's not assume this is an episode of "24" where the safety of the Free World
can hang upon my actions, you are blowing it way out of proportion.

I could be carrying chicken feed or dog food. Rest assured I don't have a nuke aboard.

And no one actually asked..... But FYI
I DO NOT CARRY A FIREARM MY TRUCK! (But I certainly would like to)

I am going to seek legal advice to determine whether
they could prosecute someone who was on notice when
the handgun was in their truck off their property.
Once I'm on the road the rig is 100% my responsibility.

I was just curious what the general consensus about the policy would be.

By the way, PappaGun was certainly correct,,, Let's not feed the Troll.
Become a Student of the Law we live under and proficient in the protection of yourself: so you may protect your Family, State and way of Live. Awareness is your first defense, avoidance your first tactic. If engagement is forced, Stop when the threat is gone.
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Re: Would YOU carry?

Post by TxBlonde »

If you all read the thread Mr. Ameer directed you to. Please go read it again there has been an update. Any question please Direct them to me and don't bash me or my husband on another thread. HE REFUSED TO DO AN ILLEGAL ACT and was fired for Something they dreamed up. He carried not to protect the truck or the momey but because if someone stole 5 to 10 Thousands dollars from him that the Company required him to pick up they might not want to leave a witness
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