Baybrook Mall Sexual Assault 12/9/13

[longtooth]

What happened to my beloved Texas? It's starting to sound more and more like New York.

Chas.

& especially in the big cities.
But remember in mid size Marshall the hatchet assalant @ WallyWorld.

[TomV]

We watched a video in my CHL class that did a great job of making me think.

Target parking lot. A van pulls up and a man and a woman snatch up a late teens girl and forcibly stuff her in the van. She is obviously fighting the whole way, but there is no sound on the video.

The real story was it was a domestic issue. Man and woman getting ready to move across the state. Late teen woman (daughter) doesn't want to leave her current boyfriend and go with them. They grab her as she is leaving from work and drive off.

[Charles L. Cotton]

We watched a video in my CHL class that did a great job of making me think.

Target parking lot. A van pulls up and a man and a woman snatch up a late teens girl and forcibly stuff her in the van. She is obviously fighting the whole way, but there is no sound on the video.

The real story was it was a domestic issue. Man and woman getting ready to move across the state. Late teen woman (daughter) doesn't want to leave her current boyfriend and go with them. They grab her as she is leaving from work and drive off.

Funny you should mention this incident. I cover defense of an innocent 3rd person in my CHL classes and some of my examples include the kidnapping of a child and an adult, and my "mall scenario." Sometimes there simply isn't enough information available to make a decision about lawfully intervening, but at other times there is.

Any parents who decide the best way to control their daughter is by staging what looks to the world like a kidnapping is asking for trouble and perhaps serious injury or death. Remember, the standard under TPC §9.33 is what the actor (rescuer) reasonably believes is happening. I would get involved in the kidnapping of an adult (including teenagers) much faster than I would an infant or child simply because I'd expect the adult to be screaming something to indicate it was an unlawful abduction. Obviously, if they refer to the apparent kidnappers as "Mom" or "Dad," then it's a family matter and I'm not going to get involved.

"Getting involved" doesn't necessarily mean engaging the actors with gunfire; the situation could well be diffused with a threat under TPC §9.04 or perhaps something even lower on the force continuum. If it's a legitimate act by someone such as a parent, I would expect them to respond appropriately, but some may not. We are all responsible for our actions and when you make yourself look like a kidnapper then one can expect to be treated like one.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should blindly intervene, but allowing innocent people to fall victim to unlawful assault, rape, murder, etc. when I can prevent it is not something I personally can accept. Yes, there is risk in getting involved, both physically and perhaps legally, but to me that's part of the dues we pay for living in a civilized society. Again, this is Texas, not New York and I'd hate to lose my wife, sons , daughter-in-law, Granddaughter or Grandson because others felt the risk of helping them was too great. We also have to recognize that some run to the sound of gunfire while others run away from it. The former are not foolhardy and the latter are not cowards; it's just a matter of how we are wired. Thank God (literally) that some people will run toward gunfire or a fire, otherwise, we wouldn't have first responders.

Chas.

[longtooth]

AGree w/Charles. In my class I also teach this.
Majority of "No Weapon Abductions" are parental custody or discipline.
Be careful. Things are not always what they look like.
It is not your responsibility to decide who goes home & who goes to jail this evening.

[texanjoker]

Glad to see some chl instructors covering this stuff.

[jwine]

This is why my wife knows no matter how needy the person looks, put the car in drive and leave. Period.

Thoughts and prayers to the victim.

Right! Everybody has a cell phone, call 911 or somebody but don't play the Good Samaritan....at night. In the daytime...maybe a little bit?

Pulling away to a safe distance and calling 911 is a good enough samaritan for me. The proper authorities will handle the situation much better than she or anyone else could anyways, regardless of what is going on.

People don't care if it is broad daylight outside anymore so time of day doesn't make a difference to me. Just drive away and don't look back or like I said if it is something that merits a call to 911 then do that but trying to help isn't worth the risk because people are crazy.

Perhaps I misread your post, but if you are saying to leave a woman being abducted, then no. I will not do that. And I pray that if my loved ones were being abducted that someone would try to do something other than tell the police which way they went after the police finally arrive on the scene. Most of the time the perpetrator will break off and run if someone comes at them to help, and at that time then let them go (no vigilante chases), try to get a license plate number if possible.

But if someone is in the process of being victimized, then I will step in. Could it be that I will have financial problems later? Possible but at least I could look at myself in the mirror. That is not being a wannabe, it is being a citizen who refuses to just do nothing.

If, on the other hand, your post was for the victim to drive away and call 911, then we are in full agreement.

Phill

No, no, no. I definitely meant the victim in this case should have driven away instead of trying to help a random guy waving his arms. Especially being a female and alone in a dark parking lot at night. The sad thing this women probably stopped because she was kind hearted. Lots of women (ones that I know) have a habit of seeing the best in people, those people often take advantage so it is better to just play it safe and avoid situations that aren't emergencies.

If there is an obvious crime going on then I would definitely help, I am just saying that stopping to help a stranger change a tire isn't worth the risk, especially for a female.

Better safe than sorry.

[PhillRoath]

Funny you should mention this incident. I cover defense of an innocent 3rd person in my CHL classes and some of my examples include the kidnapping of a child and an adult, and my "mall scenario." Sometimes there simply isn't enough information available to make a decision about lawfully intervening, but at other times there is.

Any parents who decide the best way to control their daughter is by staging what looks to the world like a kidnapping is asking for trouble and perhaps serious injury or death. Remember, the standard under TPC §9.33 is what the actor (rescuer) reasonably believes is happening. I would get involved in the kidnapping of an adult (including teenagers) much faster than I would an infant or child simply because I'd expect the adult to be screaming something to indicate it was an unlawful abduction. Obviously, if they refer to the apparent kidnappers as "Mom" or "Dad," then it's a family matter and I'm not going to get involved.

"Getting involved" doesn't necessarily mean engaging the actors with gunfire; the situation could well be diffused with a threat under TPC §9.04 or perhaps something even lower on the force continuum. If it's a legitimate act by someone such as a parent, I would expect them to respond appropriately, but some may not. We are all responsible for our actions and when you make yourself look like a kidnapper then one can expect to be treated like one.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should blindly intervene, but allowing innocent people to fall victim to unlawful assault, rape, murder, etc. when I can prevent it is not something I personally can accept. Yes, there is risk in getting involved, both physically and perhaps legally, but to me that's part of the dues we pay for living in a civilized society. Again, this is Texas, not New York and I'd hate to lose my wife, sons , daughter-in-law, Granddaughter or Grandson because others felt the risk of helping them was too great. We also have to recognize that some run to the sound of gunfire while others run away from it. The former are not foolhardy and the latter are not cowards; it's just a matter of how we are wired. Thank God (literally) that some people will run toward gunfire or a fire, otherwise, we wouldn't have first responders.

Chas.

Chas, thanks for this really good post. You've just said what I was trying to say and you are so correct. Every situation is different and all scenarios can not be covered in class, but if it appears to be a real crime in progress...

I still remember Texas in the late 40's and early 50's - twas a different world then.

[PhillRoath]

No, no, no. I definitely meant the victim in this case should have driven away instead of trying to help a random guy waving his arms. Especially being a female and alone in a dark parking lot at night. The sad thing this women probably stopped because she was kind hearted. Lots of women (ones that I know) have a habit of seeing the best in people, those people often take advantage so it is better to just play it safe and avoid situations that aren't emergencies.

If there is an obvious crime going on then I would definitely help, I am just saying that stopping to help a stranger change a tire isn't worth the risk, especially for a female.

Better safe than sorry.

Good - as I said then, we are in agreement. Thanks for the clarification.

[gringo pistolero]

I would call 911 for them but if it's not that kind of emergency they can wait for the mall cops to help them fix a flat or call AAA.

[drjoker]

If someone values so cheaply their own life and safety that they don't bother to carry their own gun, I'm not going to second guess their decision by using mine.

Dude, have you dated recently? Very few young ladies carry a gun. Just out of curiosity, I asked a class that I taught in college a couple of years ago, if anybody had a CHL. A couple of men and an OLDER woman raised their hands. This was repeated in subsequent classes as an informal survey and guess what? There were NO young ladies under 30 years of age who had a CHL. This was in a sample size of about 100 students.

When faced with bad situations, you have a biological response; a flight or fight response. Those with testosterone tend to fight while those with estrogen tend to take flight. I'm pretty sure these ladies valued their lives. They just deal with perps differently.

[03Lightningrocks]

Several years back, maybe fifteen or so, I was standing in line at a walgreens behind a pretty good size guy with a neck that looked like a tree trunk. What got my attention was he had a woman with him that looked like she had been beat up. She was average sized, maybe 120 pounds at most. This guy could have easily broke her in half. Anyway. While in line he kept telling her how dumb she was in a language this forum won't allow. Everyone is watching this and shifting around as if they were trying not to get involved. She seemed scared to death. Being stupid, I said to the woman, are you alright? She starts crying and says she is fine and apologizes for the guy acting a fool. He says nothing and doesn't even turn to look at me. They check out and leave.

I check out and everyone is talking about how they would have done this and that and speaking of what a jerk the guy was. Of coarse this was after he has left...LOL. I leave the walgreens and see these two standing in the walkway along the side of the store. Again, mr tree trunk has his back to me. I hear him cussing her about why she was talking to the blankity blank fat white guy in the store. I'm like a foot away and he raises his arm, makes a fist like he is about to slug her and before I know it, I have jumped on this guys back and grabbed him in a choke hold from behind. My legs were wrapped around and I am locked in like the TV guys. This big dude starts trying to shake me off but I am so scared he will pummel me, I ain't letting go till he is out. Sure enough, he goes limp, hits his knees and quits struggling. I let go but he is having trouble catching his breath. I am thinking I may go to jail if he dies on me so now I'm trying to coach mr tree trunk on how to breath.

Meanwhile... Witnesses have seen this whole thing and the cops show up. They immediately throw hand cuffs on the brute and take me to the side for on sight questions. They are ready to haul this clown off for domestic disturbance or something when his wife/girlfriend suddenly starts turning on me and the cops. She starts changing her story to make me out a thug who just jumped him for no reason. There is at least thirty minutes of silliness in which half the world is on my side and backing my account and she is vehemently protecting her man. The end of the story is, the cops suggest I let it go because he may decide to press charges on me. They let him go and the two of them get in their hoopty and drive off. The cops told me not to worry about it and that this stuff happens every day to them. They even joked that they were impressed with my choke hold.

Point is... Some situations where you are trying to help a person can backfire on you in a big way. One minute I am picking up a prescription and the next minute I have a police officer telling me I could be going to jail.

[jmra]

Had a friend who was a LEO in NOLA. He told a story about pulling a guy off a woman. The guy was beating her pretty good. While he was putting him in cuffs the woman jumped on my friends back and started pulling hair and biting him. Needless to say they both went to jail. He was just thankful she didn't have a weapon.
Moral of the story is be careful what you get involved in. Things can take unexpected turns quickly.

[C-dub]

Police say he implied he had a gun and forced her in his car."

"Show me the gun."

"Oh, I've got a gun!"

"Ok Mr. Big Man, show it to me, and I might do what you want."

"DOH!" (drives away....)

Reminds me of a scene from "My Cousin Vinny."

[drjoker]

Some situations where you are trying to help a person can backfire on you in a big way. .

'
Sad but true. If you really think about it, spouses who are abused voluntarily stay in the relationship because they enjoy being abused. Otherwise, why would they stay in the relationship and not leave?

I would help a woman who was screaming for help, but I wouldn't help a woman who was being abused and just voluntarily submitting to the abuse. A similar event happened to a close friend of mine. A lady friend of mine sprayed pepper spray on a guy beating a woman who kept apologizing to the man beating her up. The guy beats my friend up. The lady getting abused that my friend tried to protect then called the cops and reported that my friend assaulted her man for no reason and that her man was just defending himself when he pummeled my friend.

[jmra]

Some situations where you are trying to help a person can backfire on you in a big way. .

'
Sad but true. If you really think about it, spouses who are abused voluntarily stay in the relationship because they enjoy being abused. Otherwise, why would they stay in the relationship and not leave?

I would help a woman who was screaming for help, but I wouldn't help a woman who was being abused and just voluntarily submitting to the abuse. A similar event happened to a close friend of mine. A lady friend of mine sprayed pepper spray on a guy beating a woman who kept apologizing to the man beating her up. The guy beats my friend up. The lady getting abused that my friend tried to protect then called the cops and reported that my friend assaulted her man for no reason and that her man was just defending himself when he pummeled my friend.

I doubt anyone enjoys being abused. There are many irrational reasons an abused person chooses to stay with an abuser but enjoyment of abuse would not typically be one of them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-craig- ... 86921.html
I don't usually link to the Huffington Post, but it is a good article.