PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
- Jumping Frog
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Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
Excalibur,
I manage risk for a company operating in over 25 states. After discussion with "C"-level executives, we set the policy to be all "illegal" weapons are prohibited and open carry is prohibited. Legal concealed carry is implicitly allowed. Legality, of course, varies by state.
To your 3 examples, I would add a 4th nightmare example as a variation on #2.
Do not fire a favored employee by looking the other way when a company policy violation occurs. Now have someone else discovered for whatever reason with a firearm. Fire that person. For "wrongful termination bonus points", ensure the fired employee was a federally-defined protected class (race, gender, ethnic origin, religion, etc).
I manage risk for a company operating in over 25 states. After discussion with "C"-level executives, we set the policy to be all "illegal" weapons are prohibited and open carry is prohibited. Legal concealed carry is implicitly allowed. Legality, of course, varies by state.
To your 3 examples, I would add a 4th nightmare example as a variation on #2.
Do not fire a favored employee by looking the other way when a company policy violation occurs. Now have someone else discovered for whatever reason with a firearm. Fire that person. For "wrongful termination bonus points", ensure the fired employee was a federally-defined protected class (race, gender, ethnic origin, religion, etc).
-Just call me Bob . . . Texas Firearms Coalition, NRA Life member, TSRA Life member, and OFCC Patron member
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
- mojo84
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Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
When I'm advising clients I always remind them whatever the policy, consistency in application is key. So don't put a policy in place you do not intend to apply consistently across the board regardless of level, position, status, favor or other characteristic. This includes weapons, discipline, drug, vacation policies etc. When you start picking and choosing how you are going to apply policies, you are going to end up in court.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
- Jumping Frog
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Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
mojo84 wrote:... When you start picking and choosing how you are going to apply policies, you are going to end up in court.


-Just call me Bob . . . Texas Firearms Coalition, NRA Life member, TSRA Life member, and OFCC Patron member
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
That is exactly where I take the discussion when someone advocates making one off situational exceptions that are outright contradictions to policy. That option leads very quickly to blank check turnover time.Jumping Frog wrote:Excalibur,
I manage risk for a company operating in over 25 states. After discussion with "C"-level executives, we set the policy to be all "illegal" weapons are prohibited and open carry is prohibited. Legal concealed carry is implicitly allowed. Legality, of course, varies by state.
To your 3 examples, I would add a 4th nightmare example as a variation on #2.
Do not fire a favored employee by looking the other way when a company policy violation occurs. Now have someone else discovered for whatever reason with a firearm. Fire that person. For "wrongful termination bonus points", ensure the fired employee was a federally-defined protected class (race, gender, ethnic origin, religion, etc).
Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
I also advise clients not to have their policies written by people who are completely unfamiliar with the issues that surround the subject of the policy and who have never successfully managed those issues themselves.mojo84 wrote:When I'm advising clients I always remind them whatever the policy, consistency in application is key. So don't put a policy in place you do not intend to apply consistently across the board regardless of level, position, status, favor or other characteristic. This includes weapons, discipline, drug, vacation policies etc. When you start picking and choosing how you are going to apply policies, you are going to end up in court.
You'd be surprised how many companies have emergency action and active shooter response plans written by people who have never managed an emergency of any type.
Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
- mojo84
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Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
Do you guys find that many companies use consultants or computer software packages that just take boilerplate policy manuals and tweak them some? I find that to be the case many times and they just assume most of the policies are best as written. In many of those cases, the policies are not very well thought out with regard to that particular companies situation.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
Yes. Another frequent find is that they simply copy a policy from another company which usually had a poor version to begin with.mojo84 wrote:Do you guys find that many companies use consultants or computer software packages that just take boilerplate policy manuals and tweak them some? I find that to be the case many times and they just assume most of the policies are best as written. In many of those cases, the policies are not very well thought out with regard to that particular companies situation.
A request I get frequently is: "Give us a benchmark on what other companies like us are doing." Their instinct is to stay in the middle of the herd.
My return question is: "If most of them are doing it wrong, are you OK with emulating that?"
Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
- johncanfield
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Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
What was stressed in most of the management and business classes I had in college was the best policy was no policy (within limitations of course.) With no policy in writing, management is free to decide on a case by case basis and can adapt to changing conditions.
LC9s, M&P 22, 9c, Sig P238-P239-P226-P365XL, 1911 clone
- Jumping Frog
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Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
That works until you are giving depositions or testifying and responding to questions about why the company is so grossly negligent as to fail to have policies covering readily foreseeable issues. For example, try being a trucking company that hires a truck driver with 4 previous DUI's and see how a lack of policy helps defend a wrongful death case.johncanfield wrote:What was stressed in most of the management and business classes I had in college was the best policy was no policy (within limitations of course.) With no policy in writing, management is free to decide on a case by case basis and can adapt to changing conditions.
Note that finding the company grossly negligent also opens the door to punitive damages . . . the nuclear bomb of the tort world.

-Just call me Bob . . . Texas Firearms Coalition, NRA Life member, TSRA Life member, and OFCC Patron member
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
Jumping Frog wrote:That works until you are giving depositions or testifying and responding to questions about why the company is so grossly negligent as to fail to have policies covering readily foreseeable issues. For example, try being a trucking company that hires a truck driver with 4 previous DUI's and see how a lack of policy helps defend a wrongful death case.johncanfield wrote:What was stressed in most of the management and business classes I had in college was the best policy was no policy (within limitations of course.) With no policy in writing, management is free to decide on a case by case basis and can adapt to changing conditions.
Note that finding the company grossly negligent also opens the door to punitive damages . . . the nuclear bomb of the tort world.

Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
- johncanfield
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Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
That's why I said no policy is the best policy "within limitations".
LC9s, M&P 22, 9c, Sig P238-P239-P226-P365XL, 1911 clone
Re: PA Doc with CW Stops Shooter in Hospital
I'm confused.johncanfield wrote:That's why I said no policy is the best policy "within limitations".
Please clarify what those limitations might be.
Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.