Valid 30.06 sign but no 30.07 sign - what to do?

[rotor]

I carry concealed and have noticed recently that a lot of places will have a 30.06 sign up but not a 30.07 sign (Pleasure Pier in Galveston this last weekend is one). Does this mean that if I am carrying and see the 30.06 sign but not the 30.07 sign that I can just tuck my shirt to expose my pistol and not commit an offense at that time?

Just curious, are the 30.06 the current signs or the old versions which technically are no longer valid? Places where I have seen just 30.06 are the old version.

[goose]

I'm thinking maybe extreme "printing" or a momentary exposure of an otherwise concealed handgun. Ultimately, it might well come down to arguments in front of a judge. Without visual evidence, it might be hard for a prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your weapon was in fact concealed. I know that I would definitely be calling the person who noticed my weapon as a witness to show that my weapon was obviously not concealed.

That is where, IMO, it would get interesting from a defense standpoint. "Mr. Smith, how did you know my client had a handgun on their person?.......So you saw it?.........How would you have seen it if it were concealed?"

Extreme printing would definitely be in the middle of my "grey area." Fun to think about.

[Skiprr]

How in Hades did we make it to June without this thought already being hashed out!!! (I am also open to the idea that i just missed the discussion.)

You're right: it has been talked about before, in multiple Topics. Here are a couple: http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=83306 and http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=80765.

But I don't know that it's been brought up before as a standalone Topic with an explicit title. With so few relevant search terms--and most of those of little use on the Forum--even a Google search doesn't help much.

So with my moderator cap on, I think it's a good idea to have the discussion here, under a title that makes it clear what the Topic is about.

[casp625]

I just thought of another interesting example. What if I have an open muzzle holster and I wear a slightly too short shirt so that only a small fraction of the end of my gun's barrel is exposed? Is that open carry (fine at a place that is only posted 30.06), or concealed carry (fine at a 30.07 only posted location)? Clearly it has to be one or the other, right?

Since the handgun is partially visible, it's open carry. That is why I got a holster that covers the entire nuzzle and slide completely. Even if my shirt is somewhat short, only part of the holster would be visible, not the handgun.

[Bayoutalker]

Carry concealed because the Pleasure Pier is City owned and the 30.06 sign is not valid. And I suspect it has the wrong wording too if it wasn't updated in January. Regardless, it's irrelevant.

Does anyone know if this has been reported to the AG? That should take care of the problem.

[gthaustex]

This makes the discussion even more interesting...at least to me...

From the FAQ's on their website:

Prohibited Items-
In addition to the restrictions mentioned under our Food & Beverage Policy, the following items are not permitted on the Pier:
•Lawn chairs and folding chairs
•Markers, spray paint and aerosol cans
•Knives
•Chains
•Spiked clothing or jewelry
•Fireworks and explosives
•Unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon
•Chemical weapons including mace or pepper spray
•Bicycles, skateboards, rollerblades and surf boards
(Bicycles must be parked and secured at designated bike racks in the Fish Tales parking lot. Pleasure Pier is not responsible for items that are stolen or left unattended) All bags, backpacks and packages are subject to inspection prior to entering the Pier

So even though a sign may be up, their website looks like they are OK with licensed concealed carry.

[ScottDLS]

Looks like they're OK with unlicensed possession of an openly carried weapon...

[oohrah]

Unless someone in Galveston wants to pursue this, I'll be down there in a week or so, and will investigate this. Since my son is a resident and in the process of getting his LTC, we will file a complaint with the PP and the City.

[TexasFlash]

I just thought of another interesting example. What if I have an open muzzle holster and I wear a slightly too short shirt so that only a small fraction of the end of my gun's barrel is exposed? Is that open carry (fine at a place that is only posted 30.06), or concealed carry (fine at a 30.07 only posted location)? Clearly it has to be one or the other, right?

Since the handgun is partially visible, it's open carry. That is why I got a holster that covers the entire nuzzle and slide completely. Even if my shirt is somewhat short, only part of the holster would be visible, not the handgun.

by this logic, would a holster which is fully visible, but completely hides the gun inside, be concealed carry? hmmm.
Dave

[casp625]

I just thought of another interesting example. What if I have an open muzzle holster and I wear a slightly too short shirt so that only a small fraction of the end of my gun's barrel is exposed? Is that open carry (fine at a place that is only posted 30.06), or concealed carry (fine at a 30.07 only posted location)? Clearly it has to be one or the other, right?

Since the handgun is partially visible, it's open carry. That is why I got a holster that covers the entire nuzzle and slide completely. Even if my shirt is somewhat short, only part of the holster would be visible, not the handgun.

by this logic, would a holster which is fully visible, but completely hides the gun inside, be concealed carry? hmmm.
Dave

I don't know, do you think a Sneaky Pete holster is concealed carry or open carry? I'm pretty sure I could wear a sock over my handgun and have everything else completely visible and still be concealed carry.

Sec. 30.07. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH AN OPENLY CARRIED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) openly carries a handgun

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place. It is an exception to the application of this subsection that the handgun was partially or wholly visible but was carried in a shoulder or belt holster by the license holder.

[TexasFlash]

I just thought of another interesting example. What if I have an open muzzle holster and I wear a slightly too short shirt so that only a small fraction of the end of my gun's barrel is exposed? Is that open carry (fine at a place that is only posted 30.06), or concealed carry (fine at a 30.07 only posted location)? Clearly it has to be one or the other, right?

Since the handgun is partially visible, it's open carry. That is why I got a holster that covers the entire nuzzle and slide completely. Even if my shirt is somewhat short, only part of the holster would be visible, not the handgun.

by this logic, would a holster which is fully visible, but completely hides the gun inside, be concealed carry? hmmm.
Dave

I don't know, do you think a Sneaky Pete holster is concealed carry or open carry? I'm pretty sure I could wear a sock over my handgun and have everything else completely visible and still be concealed carry.

Sec. 30.07. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH AN OPENLY CARRIED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) openly carries a handgun

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place. It is an exception to the application of this subsection that the handgun was partially or wholly visible but was carried in a shoulder or belt holster by the license holder.

I guess I just disagree that a "partially visible" handgun equates to open carry...the part of 46.035 you bolded seems to agree. YMMV
Dave

[Soccerdad1995]

I just thought of another interesting example. What if I have an open muzzle holster and I wear a slightly too short shirt so that only a small fraction of the end of my gun's barrel is exposed? Is that open carry (fine at a place that is only posted 30.06), or concealed carry (fine at a 30.07 only posted location)? Clearly it has to be one or the other, right?

Since the handgun is partially visible, it's open carry. That is why I got a holster that covers the entire nuzzle and slide completely. Even if my shirt is somewhat short, only part of the holster would be visible, not the handgun.

by this logic, would a holster which is fully visible, but completely hides the gun inside, be concealed carry? hmmm.
Dave

I don't know, do you think a Sneaky Pete holster is concealed carry or open carry? I'm pretty sure I could wear a sock over my handgun and have everything else completely visible and still be concealed carry.

Sec. 30.07. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH AN OPENLY CARRIED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) openly carries a handgun

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place. It is an exception to the application of this subsection that the handgun was partially or wholly visible but was carried in a shoulder or belt holster by the license holder.

I guess I just disagree that a "partially visible" handgun equates to open carry...the part of 46.035 you bolded seems to agree. YMMV
Dave

It's all a matter of degree. I mean, even if you are "open carrying" with a standard holster, the gun is only partially visible, since part of it will be concealed by the holster (hopefully the trigger at a minimum). So in an absolute sense, the only logical definition is that if any part of the gun is visible, then you are not carrying concealed, and 30.06 restrictions would not apply to you.

You can't carry with the gun completely concealed unless it is not in a holster, or your holster is made of a transparent material.

[LTCTLB]

Since someone saw it fit to close my posted question my reply to those who responded is: I wouldn't suggest carrying CC past a 30.06 posting either - nor do I plan to. I would prefer these businesses not get my money since they see it okay to restrict my rights. I'm really just wandering if businesses that only post 30.06 just want to know who's carrying or do they plan to make it a felony by verbally notifying those that OC.

[Mike S]

Since someone saw it fit to close my posted question my reply to those who responded is: I wouldn't suggest carrying CC past a 30.06 posting either - nor do I plan to. I would prefer these businesses not get my money since they see it okay to restrict my rights. I'm really just wandering if businesses that only post 30.06 just want to know who's carrying or do they plan to make it a felony by verbally notifying those that OC.

It's not a Felony; it's a Class A Misdemeanor (unless you're charged under TPC 46.035 (b)(1) or (b)(3) (carrying concealed or openly on premises posted 51%, or inside a correctional facility). Its also a Class A Misdemeanor to remain after verbal notice under 30.06/30.07.

However, considering that a Class A Misdemeanor will get your LTC suspended until final disposition, & revoked on conviction, I'd think long & hard before pushing that envelope.

[Skiprr]

An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.

That last prepositional phrase is important. Unless at a location where a violation is an automatic elevation of offense, it is a Class C unless you are given oral notification and fail to depart the property.

I've yet to open carry except on my own property or while at a range that permits it. And I don't know that I ever will elsewhere. That said--and reduced penalties aside--I personally would never attempt to open carry onto a property with valid (or even circa 2015) 30.06 signage. Just personal opinion.