After Action Analysis (George Floyd): May 27, 2020

[AdioSS]

I really should not have commented until additional video was released.

Too many people let their emotions get the better of them & fail to look at the big picture of what is going on at that time.

Yes, it sucks that the man died, especially for a suspected forgery arrest, of all things.

[03Lightningrocks]

He very well may have resisted arrest. But once he was cuffed and lying face down, resistance is over.

I do not know about this specific case and I will not comment on whether the officers are right or wrong. I do know that I have been attacked by people who are cuffed and restrained. I remember one case where I arrived at a call for a bar fight and found a subject cuffed and laying face down on the ground with two security guards restraining him. He tried to fight us when we were switching out the cuffs. After I got him recuffed and put in a patrol car, he kicked the back door, bending the door frame and breaking the window and his ankle. When we got him to the hospital, he tried to attack me when he was sitting in a wheelchair. He tried to attack the ward tech when he was on the gurney on the way to be x-rayed.

You cannot make a flat statement that the fight is over at any certain point. Some will even pretend to stop resisting and will attack when you relax for a moment. Some officers paid with their lives for relaxing too early after someone was cuffed.

This is why I always say to wait until the investigation is completed before rushing to judgment. The officers may very well be right. They may very well be wrong. We can only truly tell after an investigation is conducted and completed. ......snip....

Well said Steve. I was amazed the LEOs were fired instead of being placed some admin duty before the investigation was completed. Everyone including the news media loves to propagate the worst case scenario.

Maybe you should watch the video of the cop crushing the mans neck with his knee for five minutes. Even kept going after the man was passed out and limp.

[parabelum]

He very well may have resisted arrest. But once he was cuffed and lying face down, resistance is over.

I do not know about this specific case and I will not comment on whether the officers are right or wrong. I do know that I have been attacked by people who are cuffed and restrained. I remember one case where I arrived at a call for a bar fight and found a subject cuffed and laying face down on the ground with two security guards restraining him. He tried to fight us when we were switching out the cuffs. After I got him recuffed and put in a patrol car, he kicked the back door, bending the door frame and breaking the window and his ankle. When we got him to the hospital, he tried to attack me when he was sitting in a wheelchair. He tried to attack the ward tech when he was on the gurney on the way to be x-rayed.

You cannot make a flat statement that the fight is over at any certain point. Some will even pretend to stop resisting and will attack when you relax for a moment. Some officers paid with their lives for relaxing too early after someone was cuffed.

This is why I always say to wait until the investigation is completed before rushing to judgment. The officers may very well be right. They may very well be wrong. We can only truly tell after an investigation is conducted and completed. ......snip....

Well said Steve. I was amazed the LEOs were fired instead of being placed some admin duty before the investigation was completed. Everyone including the news media loves to propagate the worst case scenario.

Maybe you should watch the video of the cop crushing the mans neck with his knee for five minutes. Even kept going after the man was passed out and limp.

Maybe it is an EMT in me or just being human, but watching that nazi slowly choke that man to death makes me fume. If you’re the fellow officer on scene, you tell me you’d stand by? If so shame on you. If not then you too realize this was over the top.
No middle ground here!

[jb2012]

I cannot believe that anyone can justify what happened, especially on this forum of all places.

[parabelum]

I know the mayor is a Lib but this sort of stuff transcends party lines (for me at least).

“ Mayor Jacob Frey said at a news conference that he has contacted the office of Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman to demand justice for George Floyd and his family.

"I’ve wrestled with, more than anything else over the last 36 hours, one fundamental question: Why is the man who killed George Floyd not in jail?" Frey said. “If you had done it, or I had done it, we would be behind bars right now.”

https://abcnews.go.com/US/minneapolis-m ... d=70911509

[carlson1]

Well enough of the LEO bashing. I don't want to lock the thread so let's take it back to USE OF FORCE that was the original topic.

[parabelum]

Alright, so who can here with a sound mind and good judgment say that the use of force to the extent we see here is justified. Put away LEO factor then. If this was you, you’d be locked up right now driven to financial ruin, as would anyone else.
Nobody is bashing LE, heck, some of us have family members and close friends in the circle. But if WE as responsible 2A and pro blue line folks do not fiercely condemn these sorts of events, then WE are doing grave injustice to the victims, our cause, and to all the fine man and woman in blue who serve honorably. This cannot be tolerated.

[FastCarry]

Alright, so who can here with a sound mind and good judgment say that the use of force to the extent we see here is justified. Put away LEO factor then. If this was you, you’d be locked up right now driven to financial ruin, as would anyone else.
Nobody is bashing LE, heck, some of us have family members and close friends in the circle. But if WE as responsible 2A and pro blue line folks do not fiercely condemn these sorts of events, then WE are doing grave injustice to the victims, our cause, and to all the fine man and woman in blue who serve honorably. This cannot be tolerated.

[iratollah]

I'm having a lot of empathy for the rioters now.

The anger is understandable. That ex-cop is a blight on all who wear the uniform.
Nothing like looting a Target, stealing TVs, and sport-torching your neighborhood to feel a self-righteous justice. Just sayin'.

Rooftop Koreans must be a faded memory.

[srothstein]

Sorry for being a bit harsh now, but prudently dealing with people who may be violent towards you is what you signed up for when you took your oath. Keyword is “prudently”. We all can react and cross the line. You’re there to ensure that the line isn’t crossed.
I’m sure you know what it feels like when life goes out of a person, as the muscle limps.
Here you can actually tell what is happening for certain, man was being choked to death by carotid pressure/airways obstruction and while he laid there dying (and afterwards), that nazi (calling him an officer is inappropriate) continued to press his knee. That’s “to protect and to serve”? Come on.

I would recommend not commenting if you do not know the details or have not at least watched the video. What do we say when we assume things?

I may be misinterpreting one or both of your comments, but you seemed to have misunderstood my comments. I was not saying anything about the incident in Minneapolis. I specifically said I could not comment on those officers being right or wrong.

The heart of my statement was toward the comment I had quoted where someone made a flat out rule that resistance was over at a specific point. I gave just one example of where it was not over at that point. I have had others in my career like it.

The other half of my comments were more general and apply generally. People as a general rule may jump to a conclusion and ask for specific action against someone. But we have a system where things get investigated and people get fair hearings. If someone in authority gives in to the political pressure, it never works out well, as a Minneapolis mayor and police chief just found out. With no investigation, they tried to calm the people by giving in to pressure and immediately fired the four officers. Instead of calming the people down, it fed the fire by letting them think the leaders agreed. They started rioting and are demanding criminal charges.

The four officers may deserve to be fired or charged. I do not know if that is true or not. But I know that they cannot be charged without some evidence and a solid criminal case being built. As we saw in Baltimore, a rush to criminal charges before a proper investigation meant that all the officers were found not guilty or had charges dropped. Firing without an investigation means that when the lawyers sue for wrongful termination, the officers will get their jobs back because there is no evidence to support the firing. And, the police have now given up the strongest possible investigation tool. They can no longer order the officers to make a statement or cooperate in any way. Think about this. If they were still officers, they can be ordered to cooperate in an internal investigation. That lets you get evidence to support firing them. Now, they have to do a criminal investigation with no statements from the officers involved. If they go to them now, any defense attorney is going to tell them the exact same thing we always say here - don't talk to the police. They are not your friend, but they are trying to put you in jail.

Now, how do you get any evidence of anything. Do any of you think you can prove a case with no statements from the officers and a short, partially edited video that only shows a part of the arrest (just the head and shoulders in view, nothing else). If you assume the cops are bad officers (and they may very well be), how do you prove the case to get them convicted of a crime, or even kept off the agency so they can't be a cop anymore?

[03Lightningrocks]

Sorry for being a bit harsh now, but prudently dealing with people who may be violent towards you is what you signed up for when you took your oath. Keyword is “prudently”. We all can react and cross the line. You’re there to ensure that the line isn’t crossed.
I’m sure you know what it feels like when life goes out of a person, as the muscle limps.
Here you can actually tell what is happening for certain, man was being choked to death by carotid pressure/airways obstruction and while he laid there dying (and afterwards), that nazi (calling him an officer is inappropriate) continued to press his knee. That’s “to protect and to serve”? Come on.

I would recommend not commenting if you do not know the details or have not at least watched the video. What do we say when we assume things?

I may be misinterpreting one or both of your comments, but you seemed to have misunderstood my comments. I was not saying anything about the incident in Minneapolis. I specifically said I could not comment on those officers being right or wrong.

The heart of my statement was toward the comment I had quoted where someone made a flat out rule that resistance was over at a specific point. I gave just one example of where it was not over at that point. I have had others in my career like it.

The other half of my comments were more general and apply generally. People as a general rule may jump to a conclusion and ask for specific action against someone. But we have a system where things get investigated and people get fair hearings. If someone in authority gives in to the political pressure, it never works out well, as a Minneapolis mayor and police chief just found out. With no investigation, they tried to calm the people by giving in to pressure and immediately fired the four officers. Instead of calming the people down, it fed the fire by letting them think the leaders agreed. They started rioting and are demanding criminal charges.

The four officers may deserve to be fired or charged. I do not know if that is true or not. But I know that they cannot be charged without some evidence and a solid criminal case being built. As we saw in Baltimore, a rush to criminal charges before a proper investigation meant that all the officers were found not guilty or had charges dropped. Firing without an investigation means that when the lawyers sue for wrongful termination, the officers will get their jobs back because there is no evidence to support the firing. And, the police have now given up the strongest possible investigation tool. They can no longer order the officers to make a statement or cooperate in any way. Think about this. If they were still officers, they can be ordered to cooperate in an internal investigation. That lets you get evidence to support firing them. Now, they have to do a criminal investigation with no statements from the officers involved. If they go to them now, any defense attorney is going to tell them the exact same thing we always say here - don't talk to the police. They are not your friend, but they are trying to put you in jail.

Now, how do you get any evidence of anything. Do any of you think you can prove a case with no statements from the officers and a short, partially edited video that only shows a part of the arrest (just the head and shoulders in view, nothing else). If you assume the cops are bad officers (and they may very well be), how do you prove the case to get them convicted of a crime, or even kept off the agency so they can't be a cop anymore?

I was the one who made the comment concerning the hand cuffs and I think you may have misinterpreted my comment as well. I was speaking of being hand cuffed and lying face down on the ground with hands cuffed behind the back as a threat being over. You sited situations of perps being up and on their feet as still being a threat. There was no reason for the officer to have his knee on that mans neck. He could have been held down just as easily with pressure on his back. There were other officers present as well who could have assisted in the case the guy was Houdini and tried to stand up with no hands while being held down with pressure on his back. There is a video you may not have seen that shows the entire length of the man being held down with pressure on his neck. The time frame was from 6-8 minutes which included several minutes of the man unconscious.

[03Lightningrocks]

Now, how do you get any evidence of anything. Do any of you think you can prove a case with no statements from the officers and a short, partially edited video that only shows a part of the arrest (just the head and shoulders in view, nothing else). If you assume the cops are bad officers (and they may very well be), how do you prove the case to get them convicted of a crime, or even kept off the agency so they can't be a cop anymore?

Here is the full length version. I am not sure what the man could have done to require this level of restraint. The officer kept his full weight on his knee with pressure on the mans carotid artery even after the man had passed out.

https://youtu.be/g3KADPiaR_I

[grim-bob]

I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night but I do watch a ton of Live PD It's possible for people to still be at that level of detainment and still resisting to a degree with their body and refusing to move as requested. I commonly hear "I can't breathe" after people end up on the ground while actively resisting as a ploy to get some space to resist more it seems. Sometimes claiming it loudly or screaming which can't happen without a full breath. Not saying that is the case here at all; he is clearly able to get a breath at first but towards the end is getting quieter. Likely as he was being oxygen deprived and passing out whatever the cause. I can have some empathy for officers trying to figure out what is real and what is not during an arrest when they are trying to do the right thing and not be vindictive. Doesn't excuse anything however as there was some clear signs in this case when the man really went into duress that required attention.

Regardless of his actions prior to passing out.... At a minimum I think the biggest issue is the lack of attention to the man once he was obviously unresponsive. That lasted for several minutes without a change in tactics. Unfortunately, that's when the bystanders got the most confrontational which is understandable. It also meant that the other officers were more distracted during that time. You notice officer Tao took several looks at Floyd prior to that point while he was still responsive but once the crowd became more active he never turned his back to them again and lost his ability to see that Floyd was completely out. Should he have intervened prior, I dunno since I don't have any training to judge, but had he seen at that point I would hope he might have said something. That short window is probably the most concerning evidence of something on the officer using his knee. He was really the only officer who had a viewpoint of the mans face and he continued to do as he had been instead of rendering aid. Whether his knee caused it or not is irrelevant as at that point it was clearly visible that Floyd wasn't a threat and they should have shifted to a rescue. Also curious that the paramedic checked pulse but didn't say anything either; seemed to be a lack feedback to the officer and some lack of urgency other than getting him loaded onto the gurney. Those few minutes at a minimum are the part that have me reeling and upset. I expect some level of culpability on the officers part during that time frame; maybe full responsibility once more facts are in.

All video speculation aside without an autopsy report and investigation everyone is still armchair quarter backing, including me, which isn't going to do anyone any good. We've seen several of these cases in the last 5+ years and sometimes the officer was wrong while other times not. It very well could be that some other variable was involved suppressing his breathing that just coincided with the arrest. Not saying the knee was helping! May completely have been the knee alone or it could have exacerbated an existing medical condition. An autopsy will have some evidence to help make that clearer although maybe not certain even then. Regardless there are likely some things that can be learned to better handle similar scenarios in the future to better protect the public and the officers. I'll let the experts figure out what they are and will cautiously hold my judgment until we have a full view of the facts. At a minimum I think we can all agree that no one is happy with how this went down and there needs to be something we all learn from it so that life can be preserved as best is as possible.

[Soccerdad1995]

I agree with those saying that we need to give these officers due process and should not rush to judgment. They should get the exact same level of due diligence that any other citizen would receive in the same situation.

If a security guard subdues a suspected shoplifter and then proceeds to push their knee into his throat until he is dead, I have no doubt that they would get a fair trial. But they would also be arrested on the spot, and would be in jail that night. That is what needs to happen here. Can anyone really say that a non-LEO who is on video killing someone in Minneapolis only gets arrested and charged with a crime after a full investigation has been completed? I sincerely doubt that is the case.