Drawing weapon vs. firing

[dwhitley]

I guess my point is what is the law as it relates to the exact scenario given. If they approach you and you feel as they may attack can you take out your gun and display. At that point they are either going to flee or get more aggressive. So what is the real law or is it open to the courts after the fact..

[Keith B]

I guess my point is what is the law as it relates to the exact scenario given. If they approach you and you feel as they may attack can you take out your gun and display. At that point they are either going to flee or get more aggressive. So what is the real law or is it open to the courts after the fact..

99.9% of the time it will be sent to a Grand Jury for review after a shooting. So, basically it is up to the justice system to determine if you followed the letter of the law and were justified in drawing and shooting.

As for drawing in the first place, you must feel they meet the requirements of doing bodily harm in an attack situation. If a 3 year old comes up to 'attack' me, or a 80 year old feeble lady who is delusional and has no weapon, then I am not going to draw my weapon. If a mid-20's guy about 6'6' and 275 lbs comes at me with intent to do bodily harm, then yes, I am PROBABLY going to draw. Again, it depends on the situation, and that will weigh heavily on the justification in the eyes of the law.

[dwhitley]

Hmmm.. I think it is a catch 22.... CHL holders really dont get a clear picture of right or wrong of drawing your gun. I mean yes there are some cases where its a no brainer the person coming at you with a weapon or the intent to harm you. I think the issue for me with the ATM is that you know in your gut what is about to happen, and pulling your weapon comes into play. Now mind you I have not carried other to and from my own company and waiting for my license to carry all the time. But I see a lot of post of scenarios but no really definate answer as to yes your no on your weapon display or use of. What about this scenario, your in the bank and its getting robbed you have a chance to take out the BG would it be justified or not?

[Keith B]

.... What about this scenario, your in the bank and its getting robbed you have a chance to take out the BG would it be justified or not?

That has been previously discussed a lot on the forum. You can use the search feature to see the responses and also discussion on the previous topic.

[txflyer]

Hmmm.. I think it is a catch 22.... CHL holders really dont get a clear picture of right or wrong of drawing your gun. I mean yes there are some cases where its a no brainer the person coming at you with a weapon or the intent to harm you. I think the issue for me with the ATM is that you know in your gut what is about to happen, and pulling your weapon comes into play. Now mind you I have not carried other to and from my own company and waiting for my license to carry all the time. But I see a lot of post of scenarios but no really definate answer as to yes your no on your weapon display or use of. What about this scenario, your in the bank and its getting robbed you have a chance to take out the BG would it be justified or not?

My two cents: None of the laws are clear cut for every scenario.

Each person must make the decision themselves about what they would do in each situation. There are a number of factors that must be considered including the disparity of the forces (3 attackers on 1 victim?, overall health of the victim, female attacker on a male victim - yes that's sexist, but remember your jury pool, this is Texas and we don't hit girls), does the attacker have the means to carry out a threat (does he have a weapon, is he strong enough), and does the attacker have the opportunity to attack (is he close enough, is there a barricade preventing the attacker from getting to the victim?)

So if your looking for definite draw, don't draw answers, look at the situations others have been in and think about what you would do. Then pray that, if need be, twelve "reasonable" people will agree with you.

During my CHL training one of the class members threw out something that really makes you think about all this: What would you kill for? What would die for? What can you live with?

Those three questions have made me think about a lot of scenarios and they can help guide you in figuring out what you will do in various situations.

[Excaliber]

I think the issue for me with the ATM is that you know in your gut what is about to happen, and pulling your weapon comes into play.

To carry the discussion on the ATM scenario I posed a bit further in an attempt to apply the law to a street situation, I would argue that at the point when the good guy's verbal challenge was ignored and the three individuals continued to purposefully advance without verbal interaction, in view of my knowledge of the behavior of robbery teams, they had demonstrated ability, intent and jeopardy sufficient to justify use of force to include drawing a firearm and threatening to use it. I would also argue that if the threat of deadly force was then ignored and they continued to close, the good guy would have no viable opportunity for escape and no reasonable option for dealing with a life threatening situation other than using deadly force. The time span between these two points would be only a second or two at most, and the individual investigating officers, prosecutor, and grand jury / trial jury in a given case may or may not agree with my analysis.

Does anyone see a flaw in the above solution I proposed to the ATM situation, or a better way to handle it? If we leave it at "it all depends".....without making any decision or recommendation at all, despite having lots of time to think about it, we'll have wasted an opportunity to come up with a peer reviewed best practice we could all learn from and use in the field.

If we procrastinate in a real situation, the bad guys win by default - they get to do whatever it is they came for without effective opposition, and the indecisive good guy either goes home poorer or not at all.

If we can't come up with a good answer here, it's pretty unlikely that we'll suddenly get lots smarter and come up with a brilliant plan for successfully handling a real situation of this type as it unfolds in a couple of seconds around us.

How 'bout it?

[Keith B]

I think the issue for me with the ATM is that you know in your gut what is about to happen, and pulling your weapon comes into play.

To carry the discussion on the ATM scenario I posed a bit further in an attempt to apply the law to a street situation, I would argue that at the point when the good guy's verbal challenge was ignored and the three individuals continued to purposefully advance without verbal interaction, in view of my knowledge of the behavior of robbery teams, they had demonstrated ability, intent and jeopardy sufficient to justify use of force to include drawing a firearm and threatening to use it. I would also argue that if the threat of deadly force was then ignored and they continued to close, the good guy would have no viable opportunity for escape and no reasonable option for dealing with a life threatening situation other than using deadly force. The time span between these two points would be only a second or two at most, and the individual investigating officers, prosecutor, and grand jury / trial jury in a given case may or may not agree with my analysis.

Does anyone see a flaw in the above solution I proposed to the ATM situation, or a better way to handle it? If we leave it at "it all depends".....without making any decision or recommendation at all, despite having lots of time to think about it, we'll have wasted an opportunity to come up with a peer reviewed best practice we could all learn from and use in the field.

If we procrastinate in a real situation, the bad guys win by default - they get to do whatever it is they came for without effective opposition, and the indecisive good guy either goes home poorer or not at all.

If we can't come up with a good answer here, it's pretty unlikely that we'll suddenly get lots smarter and come up with a brilliant plan for successfully handling a real situation of this type as it unfolds in a couple of seconds around us.

How 'bout it?

If it was exactly as you have listed it, removing all other external factors, then I probably would do just as you listed. However, we all know that EVERY situation is different and there are other things to factor in. So all I can say is it is a definite maybe in any scenario.

[Excaliber]

[quote=KeithB]
If it was exactly as you have listed it, removing all other external factors, then I probably would do just as you listed. However, we all know that EVERY situation is different and there are other things to factor in. So all I can say is it is a definite maybe in any scenario.[/quote]

Thanks for engaging the thought.

You are of course right in that no two situations will ever occur exactly the same, and even two very similar situations may well have very different optimal solutions that are both practical and lawful. However, I believe there is value to considering circumstances that require some thought and coming up with courses of action that we believe are the best we can think of while we have the luxury of considering options and researching the legal issues.

I think the best ones to work on are the murky ones that require exercising insight and judgment. Doing so helps us build an internal "library" that can be drawn on when faced with circumstances in the real world. These predecided fact / response patterns can help us make good decisions much faster than we would if we had to start from scratch in condition red.

[Keith B]

If it was exactly as you have listed it, removing all other external factors, then I probably would do just as you listed. However, we all know that EVERY situation is different and there are other things to factor in. So all I can say is it is a definite maybe in any scenario.

Thanks for engaging the thought.

You are of course right in that no two situations will ever occur exactly the same, and even two very similar situations may well have very different optimal solutions that are both practical and lawful. However, I believe there is value to considering circumstances that require some thought and coming up with courses of action that we believe are the best we can think of while we have the luxury of considering options and researching the legal issues.

I think the best ones to work on are the murky ones that require exercising insight and judgment. Doing so helps us build an internal "library" that can be drawn on when faced with circumstances in the real world. These predecided fact / response patterns can help us make good decisions much faster than we would if we had to start from scratch in condition red.

I totally agree that 'what if' scenarios are important and should be thought about. I personally run them through my head many times daily as I go through my normal routine when I am in the quick stop, the bank, the restaurant, etc. These, along with handgun training, practice and proficiency will present you with the best odds if a real situation arises.

However, I am always reluctant to answer any Internet presented scenario with a solid answer. This is do to the extras that could play a factor in them. Each one of us will have a different view in our head as to what the presented scenario looks like, and in turn we will each answer differently. Ask any LEO or Military person who has actually been in various face to face self defense situations and they will tell you while they may be similar, no two are exactly alike, and in turn each would be handled differently due to time of day, location, bystanders, yadda yadda. I can tell you I was never in two that were totally identical as a LEO (albeit was only a 4 year stint.)

One of the good things about this forum is the sharing of knowledge, reviewing actual cases and discussing how they were handled and what could have been done better. Even then, unless you were truly involved, your methods and how you handled it will be different than the next persons view.

[dwhitley]

I want to say thanks to all of you... you really give people things to think about. It makes you respect the gun carry laws even more. I also can say I hope I never have to pull it for defense of life or property. Thanks again ... DW

[nils]

Let me get a little personal here. I have been diagnosed with multiple brain tumors earlier this year, and my doctor has told me to be extra careful concerning my head. Any activities that could cause any kind of head trauma, whether it be minor or major could cause me serious damage. This being said, a regular fight with a BG could potentially kill me due to my condition. Would I be justified to draw and/or fire if a BG threatens to kick my butt (which for me is the same as great bodily harm)??? Thanks.

[dwhitley]

I am by no means a old timer here, but I would almost ask the question should you be carrying period? Just my thoughts as I do not know the full extent of your personal health...

[nils]

No offense taken David. I have complete function, no psychosis, and am still employed full-time as well as being a part-time graduate student. Although I have a very serious condition, it has no bearing on my ability to operate my weapons--scored perfect on both shooting and written sections of CHL exams--tops in the class. If nothing else, having the ability to defend myself without having to get into a physical confrontation is one of the reasons why I chose to get my CHL.

[KC5AV]

Let me get a little personal here. I have been diagnosed with multiple brain tumors earlier this year, and my doctor has told me to be extra careful concerning my head. Any activities that could cause any kind of head trauma, whether it be minor or major could cause me serious damage. This being said, a regular fight with a BG could potentially kill me due to my condition. Would I be justified to draw and/or fire if a BG threatens to kick my butt (which for me is the same as great bodily harm)??? Thanks.

I'm no professional, but I seriously doubt any sort of verbal threat is ever going to be a justification for deadly force.

[nils]

OK. Let me be a bit more specific. If a BG confronts me in a way that I feel physically threatened, and verbally confirms his threat, I feel that I am more than in my right to stop the threat. With this said, I haven't been in a fist-fight in 15 years, and am very easy going--I'm a social worker working with at-risk children. But my job does take me into the worst neighborhoods in the city, and there is a real potential for violence anywhere in Houston at this point.