As A CHLer - Should You Be A First Responder?

[Pacifist]

You sound like a pacifist...

You should know better than to confuse a moniker (screen name) with a philosophy.

My main point in my original response was that although I am fully prepared, able, and willing to deal with whatever trouble may find me, there is absolutely no need for me to go running around trying to find it.

[G.A. Heath]

Distilled down to its most basic form, my thoughts and training lead me to think along the lines of "I don't carry a gun to shoot a threat, I carry a gun so that if I have no other choice I can use deadly force to stop a threat." To anyone who thinks that running away when possible negates the idea of carrying a gun I ask you do the following: The next time your tire is low on air rather than stopping and putting air in it, stop and swap it for your spare. After all if your not going to use it, then its kinda meaningless to carry it around.

Turning your back while someone shooting at anything moving get you killed. I hope you have a plan to retreat with your firearm handy.

If turning my back can get me shot then the shooter is an immediate threat, and will more than likely get perforated. One aspect of the additional training I have opted for is threat assessment (See my first post to this thread), something that you have ignored when looking at my previous posts in this thread. Just because you can jump off of a bridge doesn't mean that you should, the same goes for shooting someone. If they are an immediate threat the odds are they will get perforated, if they are not an immediate threat then I can safely flee without placing myself or my loved ones at risk. Too many people view the world in black and white and believe that fleeing an attacker when it is safe translates to fleeing all the time, it does not. I would apologize for not sharing some folks values of thinking that a CHL obligates me to acting like a cop except If I wanted to act like a cop I would go to the academy, get certified, and get hired to be a cop. Even then when not properly equipped I would not go running toward gunfire with some misguided notion of self sacrifice so that I could place myself or others at risk.

[seamusTX]

Not to forget that nearly every incident that involves gunfire (in this country at present) is finished by the time the sound has registered in your brain. If you run to the scene, and you can find it, either no one will be there, or you will be giving first aid and calling for an ambulance.

If it is a hostage or sniper situation, you are not equipped to deal with it. You can't call in close air support.

Finally, as I have said many times, if I were called to eradicate evil from the world, I would have gone to divinity school.

- Jim

[A-R]

You sound like a pacifist...

You should know better than to confuse a moniker (screen name) with a philosophy.

You're right. I'm really more of a Cedar Park Realtor - but nobody knows where Cedar Park is

[The Annoyed Man]

What does "in the distance" mean? I'm not going to run 150 yards to the sound of shooting. I carry primarily for my own defense and the defense of my loved ones, but on an individual case by case basis, I might be a first responder if it were clearly the right thing to do and there were no alternatives, and it was happening just a few feet away. The problem is that dead heroes are pretty much useless to their families except as a source of great grief. There are people who are paid to assume those risks. I'm not one of them.

[Pacifist]

You're right. I'm really more of a Cedar Park Realtor - but nobody knows where Cedar Park is

Yes, but who doesn't know of the Cedar Park philosophy?

[sugar land dave]

There is no legal obligation for a CHL holder to run to what may or may not be an incident. The CHL is primarily for defense of self and family in an imminent deadly force situation. Defense of third parties is more problematic and would require situational analysis. Also, actually running to a scene instead of calling 911 would seem tricky from a legal standpoint.

I don't think the CHL is a license to become John Rambo.

[Dave2]

You're right. I'm really more of a Cedar Park Realtor - but nobody knows where Cedar Park is

Yes, but who doesn't know of the Cedar Park philosophy?

I know (roughly) where Cedar Park is, but have never heard of their philosophy.

[Jasonw560]

Let me tell you something that happened to me, then what I think I would do in another couple of situations.

One day, my family and I are driving home from a day shopping and running errands. A car speeds past us, and runs a red light. A small SUV is going perpendicular to them, and they have a green light. The car going our way hits the SUV, and the SUV overturns. My wife has to pull me back into out Pathfinder (I was in the middle of the road) to stop from jumping out and maybe getting hurt myself. So, we find a safe place to aprk, and I render as much aid as I can without a Medic bag or gloves, using what is around me. Active paramedics arrive, and I give them and the police all the info. and I am on my way. I tell you this to tell you I am the type of person who will get out and help.

SO, what I think (hope) I would do in 2 situations.

1) About a year or two ago, this kid goes nuts. I forget if it's drugs or what, but he gets into a fight with an ex-girlfriend, and shoots her. She escapes, and drives off. This is in Mission, TX. She drives about 50 miles to Harlingen (where I live) and into the HEB parking lot, where she runs through the parking lot and ostensibly in to the store to try to get away. Nutboy shoots and kills her. There was a bystander, unarmed, who threw a can of something at the guy. The bystander hit nutboy, but didn't get shot.

I would like to think, had I been there and had my CHL at this time, I would have stopped nutboy. (Defense of a 3rd person).

2) In the hospital where I work, I am in a 10X12 foot room with one way in and out. If a gunman were to come in, I would, in defense of my life, definitely defend myself. Otherwise I would almost certainly be killed.

[The Annoyed Man]

Jasonw560, I have no problem rendering first aid by the side of the road, and I have done so up to and including CPR and mouth to mouth resuscitation back in the bad old days before masks, etc. But the title of this thread is "As A CHLer - Should You Be A First Responder?" That implies a situation involving a gun, not first aid. And like I said, if something happened a few feet away from me, and I could reasonably respond without getting myself killed, I might do that. But what is getting overlooked in some of these responses is the very first sentence of the OP. He said:

Some CHLers have stated words to the effect that if at a distance they heard gun shots they'd run to them with the thought of helping innocents in trouble.

That is why I responded with:

What does "in the distance" mean?

This is a perfectly valid question. If I hear a car accident happen a few blocks away, I'm not going to go rushing over there. I have had a fair amount of work experience in this area in the past, and the last thing that paid first responders to an accident want is for drivers to converge on the scene, blocking the streets, and making access for police, paramedics, and firemen more difficult than it needs to be.

Similarly, if I hear gunshots 150 yards away, I am not going to run to the sound of the gunfire. That's kind of nuts unless you're getting paid to do it. If I hear gunshots 6 feet away from me, I will react accordingly, either to escape or to intervene depending on what my personal moral code calls for. I might be more likely to put myself at risk on behalf of children, or the elderly and infirm. But other adults have the right to get their own CHL, and shame on them for not doing so and carrying a gun of their own. If they don't, I don't owe them my life in their defense, unless I am related to them somehow.

So it isn't a case of being heartless. It's a case of letting other adults bear the full responsibility of their decisions. Far be it from me to offend their sensibilities by doing for them what they would not do for themselves.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

The society I want to live in is one that rejects lawlessness and is inhabited by citizens who help each other out in times of need. Is that realistic? Nope. It's a pipe dream.

IMO a CHL has nothing to do with whether a citizen opts to help another citizen as a "first responder". However, a "first responder" competent in the use of a tool that could very well stop deadly threats could certainly come in handy in some situations, be they citizen or LEO.

Do what you think is best.

[jmra]

The Arizona situation should be a lesson to us all. The guy running out of the walgreen with gun drawn made no positive impact. Just imagine how this conversation would be going if he would have shot the guy he saw holding the gun. Remember the only reason he gave for not shooting was the slide was locked in the open position so he did not consider him a threat. Would he have felt the same way if the slide had not been locked back? How do you think a Leo is going to respond in an active shooter situation if he sees a guy come around the corner with gun drawn?
I do not see much upside in moving toward a situation about which you have no information. I do see a lot of down side.

[texanron]

If I'm within 50 yards of the BG and have a clean line of sight I would take a shot to end the threat.

[The Annoyed Man]

If I'm within 50 yards of the BG and have a clean line of sight I would take a shot to end the threat.

That is different than running toward the sound of gunfire "if at a distance" as asked by the OP. I'm not against helping where I can, but I have a duty to return home safe to my wife. That duty supersedes any duty I owe to a stranger, because I unapologetically place a higher priority on her needs than I do to a stranger's needs.

The society I want to live in is one that rejects lawlessness and is inhabited by citizens who help each other out in times of need. Is that realistic? Nope. It's a pipe dream.

That. Why is it a pipe dream? Because our actions on behalf of strangers do not occur in a vacuum. They occur within the context of the expectations of those to whom we have previously pledged our lives. So that is where I draw the line. I cannot honor my existing pledges to my wife and son if I throw my life away for someone else. If y'all remember, I'm the guy who proposed a few months ago that we may each have an individual responsibility to the preservation of the culture. I still feel that way, and certainly giving aid to strangers is part of that.

BUT... I am not a stranger's "hired gun." That is properly the role of the police; and as a taxpayer, I want the police to have every opportunity to fulfill that role. I don't want unarmed strangers to feel more secure in their persons because they think that there are armed citizens walking around who might place their own lives in danger to come to their aid if the poo hits the fan. Nobody has the right to expect that of someone else unless there exists a previously established bond between those two people. Given the fact that every single qualifying adult in this state has the legal right to obtain their own CHL and carry a gun, or to carry a gun in their car under the MPA, their failure to take advantage of that is an actual decision to be disarmed. If condition "A" (disarmed) is the default, and condition "B" (have a CHL) is the alternative, then a failure to choose condition "B" is a decision to choose condition "A." My choice of "B" does not obligate me to those who have chosen "A."

If I see someone walking toward a cliff, yes, I have a responsibility to advocate to them that they either stop, turn left, or turn right, before they get to the cliff's edge. That is a good description of social/political advocacy. But once they have walked off the edge, I have no responsibility to jump off the edge after them to try and soften their landing. My responsibility then becomes pointing out to others what happened to the first guy because he failed to stop, turn left, or turn right, so that they might choose "B" over "A."

So, the degree to which I am willing to aid a stranger with my gun is directly connected to the degree to which my own life is at risk in that moment. Therefore, if I were a patron inside the Luby's in Killeen on October 16, 1991, I would have taken a shot at the shooter before he could shoot me. If that saved the lives of others, then that's good. But if I were outside in the parking lot when the shooting started, I would not run inside to engage the shooter. If I had the shot from 50 yards away, from behind the cover of a parked car and without any victims in the line of fire, I would take it. But running toward the gunfire is a young man's game. I'm not a young man.

[jmra]

If I'm within 50 yards of the BG and have a clean line of sight I would take a shot to end the threat.

50 yards? Heck of a long shot with a hand gun. I'll have to try that next time I'm at the range. Rifle range that is.