AZ: Marine killed in misdirected SWAT raid

[gigag04]

You quoted about 100 words from three people. What part of it do you not understand?

- Jim

Bullwhip's post was hard to follow. That's all I was saying - I was hoping he would clarify.

[threoh8]

Ken Ballew, anyone?

[Purplehood]

After watching the video, thank you for posting the link. I have the following comments:

So a judge signs a warrant to search your house, as someone has presented something that makes him believe there is probable cause to search your house. (I'm wondering what the judge is thinking right now. Maybe his name needs to be published. If he is proud of the job he is doing maybe he should come forward and say what he knows. All I know is I would be looking a lot harder at any search warrants I was signing after this.)

Is this what normally happens?

I usually don't come to the door right away as I am normally not expecting visitors. So if you don't come to the door in about what ten seconds and open the door, it is knocked down. And then five guys spray the house with automatic fire.

There were children in the house and innocent adults.

I did here what sounded like a car alarm. So there was some warning. I also didn't see Swat running around the side of the house pointing guns at the wife.

Seemed like a pretty nice little neighborhood.

I guess what I am asking is this standard operating procedure for serving a search warrant.

Or have I watched too much "Law and Order" and its really more like the videos of Iraq I have seen. Actually our soldiers seemed more careful of the civil rights of Iraqis.

After watching this and knowing what happened, I am now on the side of legalizing drugs, as it seems the drugs are much less of a worry to me now.

So they found a Border patrol cap, some guns (usually described as an arsenal of) and a bullet proof vest.

Very sad.

When you are on a team standing outside someones door and mentally expecting to execute a high-risk warrant, the door opens and someone is inside with a gun there is NO mental processing time the reaction is "Threat, shoot!" Being mentally amped up in preparation for a warrant service tends to trip up peoples natural reactions. I am sure the Sheriffs deputies were not expecting an innocent home owner to be inside with a gun in response to them breaking down the door.

But isn't that becoming more and more of the norm for homeowners to arm themselves and prepare to repel home invaders? Sounds like a legitimate and armed citizen can die unarmed at the hands of home-invaders or die armed at the hands of zealous SWAT teams. In my mind there appears to be an incredible difference between your run of the mill LEO on the beat, and a SWAT team member in mindset and preconceptions.

[Bullwhip]

You quoted about 100 words from three people. What part of it do you not understand?

- Jim

Bullwhip's post was hard to follow. That's all I was saying - I was hoping he would clarify.

Sorry, I'm not the best writer.

The first news reports said it was a drug raid. There were no drugs. Then sheriff said it was a warrant for a home invasion ring but the "police uniform" was just a border patrol cap, you can buy almost anywhere. Then the official version went back to it being a drug raid.

Nobody knows what the warrant says, that got sealed up.

Doesn't look like a good shoot to me.

[speedsix]

...sure doesn't!!!

[seamusTX]

The search warrant, probable-cause affidavit, and other documents related to this case were unsealed yesterday.

According to news reports, the brother of the deceased José Guerena was one target of a long-running drug investigation. José had been with other targets of the investigation in vehicles that police stopped and "seen" at a house that they frequented.

A group of nine people mentioned in the affidavit supposedly own 32 cars among them, worth more than $344 thousand dollars.

Also, according to this report, José was hit 22 times out of 71 shots (more typical for this type of incident). Earlier reports said he was hit 60 times.

There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence such as "Guerena was stopped in a truck that had a large roll of the plastic wrap often used to package drug loads like this one."

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14831993/war ... -drug-ring" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.kold.com/story/14831922/fami ... estigation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.kvoa.com/news/newly-released ... e-guerena/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

[MasterOfNone]

There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence such as "Guerena was stopped in a truck that had a large roll of the plastic wrap often used to package drug loads like this one."

- Jim

I guess I should be concerned about being stopped in my truck with 30 gallons of gasoline, like that used for committing arson.

[Dave2]

Sounds like a legitimate and armed citizen can die unarmed at the hands of home-invaders or die armed at the hands of zealous SWAT teams.

That's exactly what I'm taking away from this. If you're unarmed the BGs have their way with you, if you're armed SWAT thinks you're Pablo Escobar and shoots you twenty-one times.

[pbwalker]

My thoughts on these militaristic raids are well known, so I won't add fuel to the fire...

So, those who are ok with these types of raids, can you tell us "everyday law-abiding citizens" how to avoid a situation like this?

[AJ80]

My thoughts on these militaristic raids are well known, so I won't add fuel to the fire...

So, those who are ok with these types of raids, can you tell us "everyday law-abiding citizens" how to avoid a situation like this?

Not that I'm OK with these types of raids in most cases, but I'll answer your question anyway.

One option may be to harden your home against invasions so much that not even a squad of marines could get in. Then upon the event of a SWAT raid, demand proof of identification and a warrant before letting anyone in.

Although I'm sure, depending on the area of the U.S. You're in, they'd find some reason to toss you in jail for that.

[VoiceofReason]

After watching the video, thank you for posting the link. I have the following comments:

So a judge signs a warrant to search your house, as someone has presented something that makes him believe there is probable cause to search your house. (I'm wondering what the judge is thinking right now. Maybe his name needs to be published. If he is proud of the job he is doing maybe he should come forward and say what he knows. All I know is I would be looking a lot harder at any search warrants I was signing after this.)

Is this what normally happens?

I usually don't come to the door right away as I am normally not expecting visitors. So if you don't come to the door in about what ten seconds and open the door, it is knocked down. And then five guys spray the house with automatic fire.

There were children in the house and innocent adults.

I did here what sounded like a car alarm. So there was some warning. I also didn't see Swat running around the side of the house pointing guns at the wife.

Seemed like a pretty nice little neighborhood.

I guess what I am asking is this standard operating procedure for serving a search warrant.

Or have I watched too much "Law and Order" and its really more like the videos of Iraq I have seen. Actually our soldiers seemed more careful of the civil rights of Iraqis.

After watching this and knowing what happened, I am now on the side of legalizing drugs, as it seems the drugs are much less of a worry to me now.

So they found a Border patrol cap, some guns (usually described as an arsenal of) and a bullet proof vest.

Very sad.

When you are on a team standing outside someones door and mentally expecting to execute a high-risk warrant, the door opens and someone is inside with a gun there is NO mental processing time the reaction is "Threat, shoot!" Being mentally amped up in preparation for a warrant service tends to trip up peoples natural reactions. I am sure the Sheriffs deputies were not expecting an innocent home owner to be inside with a gun in response to them breaking down the door.

Maybe I am a coward but my reaction would be “threat, take cover”. Of course all I had was a Kevlar vest.

An officers training should temper his/her natural reaction. This calls into question the training of swat teams (shoot or take cover).

The natural reaction of most people, if someone spits on them, is to smack the person up side the head. An officer must resist his/her natural reaction.

The natural reaction of most people, if they have to chase someone down and wrestle them to the ground, is to thump on them a while. An officer must resist his/her natural reaction.

Sounds like one officer started shooting so all the other officers did. This has happened too many times.

[tomneal]

I doubt anyone could harden a home to keep out marines but,

do you really think you could harden your house to keep Swat out?


Are you thinking retrofitting an existing home
or
are you thinking a new home built in Tilt-Wall construction?

What kind of doors (and door frames) would stop Swat?

[seamusTX]

I doubt anyone could harden a home to keep out marines but, do you really think you could harden your house to keep Swat out?

The Marines would simply drive through the walls with an armored vehicle, or use explosives.

Probably you could harden the doors of a house sufficiently to slow down SWAT that did not have access to those tools. However, few houses are constructed in a way that would stop forced entry through the windows or even walls. The building permit process in most places would prohibit building a bunker.

- Jim

[PUCKER]

Buddy of mine is a SWAT sniper for a local large city....when they have intel that indicates that the front door is hardened or has a man-trap or similar device (many are drug houses, man traps are apparently quite common) they will just pull down the wall. Most of the target houses have wood walls...a ram/grappelling/breaching device goes through the wall (with a line on it) and then it (and the wall) gets pulled out/away (line is attached to a vehicle) and the team goes in. My buddy also fabricates some of these devices used to breach/tear down the walls.

[seamusTX]

Roofs also are quite fragile, for the most part. I've seen roofers knock a hole in the roof with a sledgehammer and then just pull up the deck layer by hand.

It's not unheard of for burglars to enter a home that way, if they can get access to an obscure part of the roof. Very few burglar alarm systems are set up to detect this.

- Jim