Amusing DPS encounter in Hickory Creek (Denton County)

[srothstein]

I use to just use what we called the trigger on the radar so I didn't have to leave it running just for that reason.

I think you mis-spelled "I used the trigger because continuous mode is an unconstitutional search of the driver, and I only searched drivers with radar after establishing probable cause via my trained and accurate estimation of the driver's speed."

I'm sure that's what you meant. Right?

HUH ?

Under the law, an officer to using an electronic device to check a car's speed constitutes a search. To do this legally, the officer must have probable cause. The probable cause comes from an officer being able to testify that he saw a vehicle approaching at what appeared to be a speed in excess of the speed limit. To have this stand up in court, the officer must be able to show he was trained in, and capable of, judging the speed of cars within a reasonable error rate.

Of course, most officers forget this and use the continuous mode on the radars. They also park in places where they cannot possibly see the car before they radar it. But the officers will almost all testify this way without remembering the old rules (if they were even taught that radar is a search). And most people pay the tickets or do not argue the search in court (instead trying to argue the speed) so the officers get away with it.

My best advice for beating a speeding ticket, other than not speeding, is to argue that you were doing a reasonable and prudent speed, regardless of the posted limit, or to argue the search and have the radar reading thrown out. I don't predict a high rate of success for either argument in municipal/JP court, but if you are willing to appeal it (which costs money and time), you stand a decent chance of winning.

[gigag04]

I usually burst the radar if I'm looking for stops. If I'm on the way to a call I leave moving radar on just to keep my estimation skills sharp.

Lidar is a great way to fix both issues IMO but we have limited units, and in some instances I feel radar is better suited. Depending on a dept's training fighting a ticket works better in some areas and and worse in others. I know in a 30 mile radius from our dept this is true anyway.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

bronco78 wrote:
To the OP.. I apologize for hijacking your thread.

Your apology is not necessary but is accepted sir.

I was shocked to see this 12/09 thread come back to life
like a zombie!!

Did you know that although laser/lidar is thought to be the
ultimate speed-measuring device, it has serious drawbacks
that discourage its use by LEO's in some circumstances, to wit:

1. Laser can't be used from a moving vehicle. So officers can't
be cruising the roads and using laser on vehicles they might want
to ticket. Radar is the preferred device for that.

2. Laser can't shoot through glass. So the officer must have his
window rolled down if he's sitting in his cruiser. If he wants to have
a comfortable angle while monitoring traffic, his car will be parked
perpendicular to the flow of traffic. When you see police unit parked
like this, it's more apparent to a motorist.

By the way, just to throw another fun fact into the LEO/speed device
soup here - Arizona has decided to de-activate all the speed cameras
and roving speed-monitoring vans across the state. The Arizona
citizenry has been very vocal in their displeasure of such high intensity/high
tech Big Brotherdom. One outraged citizen even murdered one of the
men who was staffing a speed monitoring van.

SIA

[gigag04]

2. Laser can't shoot through glass. So the officer must have his
window rolled down if he's sitting in his cruiser. If he wants to have
a comfortable angle while monitoring traffic, his car will be parked
perpendicular to the flow of traffic. When you see police unit parked
like this, it's more apparent to a motorist
SIA

The windows on my cars must be made of paper then because it works just fine. I've even gotten a reading (though I would never write on it) while shooting into the rearview mirror - which would then had to travel through the plexiglass cage - through the rear windshield - off the car - back through rear windshield - back through the cage, and then back into the lidar unit. I was impressed.

Lidar works fine through glass, it just limits range to below 1000ft imo, usually closer to half that.

[officially off topic]

Also - for the curious...laser jammers - don't.

[92f-fan]

I use to just use what we called the trigger on the radar so I didn't have to leave it running just for that reason.

I think you mis-spelled "I used the trigger because continuous mode is an unconstitutional search of the driver, and I only searched drivers with radar after establishing probable cause via my trained and accurate estimation of the driver's speed."

I'm sure that's what you meant. Right?

HUH ?

Under the law, an officer to using an electronic device to check a car's speed constitutes a search. To do this legally, the officer must have probable cause. The probable cause comes from an officer being able to testify that he saw a vehicle approaching at what appeared to be a speed in excess of the speed limit.

A perpetually ignored law. If it weren't ignored there would be no market for detectors.

So does that law not apply to speed cameras ?

[chabouk]

I use to just use what we called the trigger on the radar so I didn't have to leave it running just for that reason.

I think you mis-spelled "I used the trigger because continuous mode is an unconstitutional search of the driver, and I only searched drivers with radar after establishing probable cause via my trained and accurate estimation of the driver's speed."

I'm sure that's what you meant. Right?

HUH ?

Under the law, an officer to using an electronic device to check a car's speed constitutes a search. To do this legally, the officer must have probable cause. The probable cause comes from an officer being able to testify that he saw a vehicle approaching at what appeared to be a speed in excess of the speed limit.

A perpetually ignored law. If it weren't ignored there would be no market for detectors.

So does that law not apply to speed cameras ?

The only real value in a radar detector, is knowing when one is working in your area because it's used against someone else. If it's targeted against you, your detector does no good. (Yes, I understand about picking up a continuous radar signal before the unit is able to get a lock on you, but in traffic this is rarely the case.)

I'm fairly confident it would be upheld against speed cameras too, if anyone ever appealed it to that level. Are speed cameras even used in Texas?

[srothstein]

In most states, to get around the Fourth and Fifth Amendments (rights against search and rights to face an accuser), the camera generated tickets are civil cases against the owner of the vehicle. Texas does this with red light cameras too. This way the evidence is still legal, since the SCOTUS thinks your rights only apply to criminal cases. That might make an interesting court appeal one day (the Fourth amendment does not limit itself as I read it, though the Sixth does).

Of course, Texas is different from many states by still having all traffic tickets as crimes. Many states have made them all civil infractions.

EDIT since Chabouk was typing as I was: Speed cameras are LEGAL in Texas, despite public opinion and belief otherwise. The legislature made them illegal for cities and counties to use, but DPS could still do it. I have to check this but that is the way I remember it passing. Quotas were done the same way.

Second EDIT: I just checked and I remembered it wrong. The ban on speed cameras only applies to cities. Counties and DPS can still do it. Transportation Code Section 542.2035 if anyone is interested.

[92f-fan]

The only real value in a radar detector, is knowing when one is working in your area because it's used against someone else. If it's targeted against you, your detector does no good. (Yes, I understand about picking up a continuous radar signal before the unit is able to get a lock on you, but in traffic this is rarely the case.)

I'm fairly confident it would be upheld against speed cameras too, if anyone ever appealed it to that level. Are speed cameras even used in Texas?

Ive used a detector on and off for years - In my experience, the VAST majority of speed enforcement that isn't using LIDAR, the radar is on all the time.
Constables around here are some of the worst - they drive around 24x7 with the radar humming ...

So one benefit is to have some warning that a speed trap is operating. Based on this discussion the operator of the trap is violating the law, so that makes it more desirable to avoid that Operator who chooses to selectively enforce the law.

I understand that if you are driving alone or are the first car in a pack - that instant on will get you with no warning ..

[surprise_i'm_armed]

srothstein:
You commented above that speed cameras are allowed under
Texas law to be operated by counties or DPS.

In a bold, but apparently unsuccessful request, the small town
of Hickory Creek, Denton County, asked TexDOT/maybe DPS too,
if the town of Hickory Creek could install and gain revenue from
speed cameras set up on I-35E.

Hickory Creek is a 4.6 square mile town whose 2005 population
count was 3,044. Since I-35E runs through town, the revenue
patrol is out on the highway most days, since there's no crime
to speak of in the town itself. But the town was trying to cut
down on having actual LEO's run the speed traps, by going to
automated cameras.

If the higher level authorities had granted the speed cameras to
the Town of Hickory Creek, it would have been the first town in
Texas to have speed cameras on an interstate.

SIA

[stevie_d_64]

I thought
sure he would then ask me for ID and I'd present him with both my DL and CHL.

You're just dyin to show off that purdy piece of plastic aren't ya ?

BTW , I don't use a radar detector to break the law. I use it to keep me from breaking the law.

I used to have one to keep me from getting caught...As much as possible...

At least I'm honest...

[USA1]

I'm surprised that you go so far out of your way to help strangers on the side of the road, including purchasing light bars for your truck and laying cones out.

I've seen SIA's truck with the lights. He even has a reflective vest...Two I think.
When he told me how he helps stranded motorists, I thought "Wow, the ultimate good Samaritan".
After spending time chatting with him I quickly learned that he's just a genuine all around great guy.

Hats off to you SIA.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Russell:
As far as my stopping to help out motorists, I'm not really
handy with fixing cars or other items, but I can change a flat
(I've got a decent floor jack which is better than most people's
OEM scissors jack), jump a battery, or add needed fluids.

In my tool chest in the bed of my Ford Ranger I've got jumper cables,
my hand tools, a plug in air compressor, oil, AT fluid, PS fluid, DOT3
brake fluid, 2 gallons of water, WSW fluid, and some planks to raise
the jack up to the levels that some PU's and SUV's need.

When I used to have this gear in the trunk of my Nissan Maxima, the
trunk was maxed out and the car rode kind of low. Now that I've got the
truck, it's much easier.

Christ calls us to be of service to others, and helping people with car problems
is very satisfying to me. I know who I am and when I help a stranded woman,
I like to think that this is one more woman who is NOT going to be raped. Even
when I see another man helping a stranded woman, I stop to check him out and
spoil the party if he had unpure motives.

For a while I stopped helping people at night, preferring to call 911 and have someone
with a gun on their hip help out. Since I am now a person with a gun on his hip or in
his pocket, I have no reason to fear who I help. Most all people I've helped have been
very nice. If I ever run into someone bad, I will seek cover, and put some of my Speer
Gold Dots in their direction.

USA1 - Yes, I have 2 lime green vests with silver reflective bands.
One just stays on the driver's seat, the other is on the passenger seat and I wear
that one when exiting the Ranger to help out.

Thanks for the kind words, my friend.

SIA

[LAYGO]

I know the Hickory Creek/Lake Dallas area well. I once got stopped by Hickory Creek all the way close to the Mayfield exit heading north! That's almost twice the length of their jurisdiction AWAY!! I forget the reason for the stop, but it was a warning & allowed to leave.

I have an INTERESTING encounter with DPS near Hickory Creek from about 407 until Swisher road exit. I was not directly involved but witnessed it.

As I was doing about 70-75 thru this area (65/70?), I noticed this red car (make/model since forgotten, it's been about a year) high tailing it up behind me. I normally see people coming up behind & am rarely the guy holding folks up. I move over. Right after I do, I notice a DPS officer coming up behind them. As I get to right before the bridge, the DPS closes to within a HALF A CAR LENGTH of the red car doing 75+. The red car is charging along & I'm watching this DPS on this guys tail weaving with him, never leaving that half a car length gap! I could *NOT* believe it.

I don't think the red car realized it was a cop behind em & just kept trucking along. I exited Swisher & never saw the DPS light em up, but I suspected they probably would've. I wish I had the presence of mind to note the car number to report that. As I understand it, and could very well be wrong, EVERYONE has to obey traffic laws, except when using lights/sirens by LEO/EMS/FIRE. I had to witness 3-4 unsafe lane changes (cutting it REAL close to cars behind the DPS), wreckless driving, unsafe speed, following too close, and I'm sure the other LEOs could offer some more.

Granted, this isn't super heinous by any means, but it bugs me because I've got all those points on my license! ;)