Idaho: Body camera video of LEO shooting man with knife

[Oldgringo]

It's really disturbing to me that we have gotten to the point where most people feel the need to have audio/video recordings of everything they do so they can "prove" that they did everything according to policy and the law or to prove that they didn't do anything to break any law.

We have become a litigious society....and who instigates and profits from the litigation?

I assume that it's not you or you wouldn't be posting.

Good eye!

[WildBill]

It's really disturbing to me that we have gotten to the point where most people feel the need to have audio/video recordings of everything they do so they can "prove" that they did everything according to policy and the law or to prove that they didn't do anything to break any law.

We have become a litigious society....and who instigates and profits from the litigation?

I assume that it's not you or you wouldn't be posting.

Good eye!

I'm always watching out for you, bro.

[Excaliber]

With reference to the "were five shots necessary" question: Unless they sever the spine or destroy the brain, bullets don't immediately stop. Had Mr. Knives decided to, he could have started charging -after- the first shot, and probably still could have after the last. He was close enough to the officer that, fatal wounds or no, he had enough time to deal some significant damage to the officer with that knife, possibly even killing the officer that just killed him. Instead, he fell down, and lost the opportunity. Had he charged, the gun probably would have been emptied, and the officer probably would have been stabbed or slashed.

If someone is inside your "comfort zone" and has their "fatal funnel" pointed at you, there's not much short of a shotgun to the face that can stop them before they hurt you. The officer had maneuvered as much as he could, but he was limited by the stairs behind him (you do NOT want to try to navigate stairs backwards under adrenaline!) a wall approximately 45 degrees to his right, and another about the same to his left. Mr. Knives was able to maneuver such that his fatal funnel (area right in front of a person) was directed straight at the officer. He was directed to drop the knife, refused, directed to stop, and advanced.

Means, Opportunity, and Intent. He certainly had the means to attack the officer (knife in this case, but could be any weapon). He had the opportunity (officer directly in front, no room for the officer to move, inside attack range). And his actions showed intent.

The only remaining question is, "Was the officer present in a law enforcement capacity, and was his presence a legitimate law enforcement need?" The first answer is "yes." The second is also "yes" - he was searching for a hit-and-run driver, and he was allowed in the house by the woman, who indicated the suspect was inside, and armed.

I don't have any problems with what occurred, other than to wish the officer well in dealing with the trauma of taking a human life.

With reference to the "were five shots necessary" question: Unless they sever the spine or destroy the brain, bullets don't immediately stop. Had Mr. Knives decided to, he could have started charging -after- the first shot, and probably still could have after the last. He was close enough to the officer that, fatal wounds or no, he had enough time to deal some significant damage to the officer with that knife, possibly even killing the officer that just killed him. Instead, he fell down, and lost the opportunity. Had he charged, the gun probably would have been emptied, and the officer probably would have been stabbed or slashed.

If someone is inside your "comfort zone" and has their "fatal funnel" pointed at you, there's not much short of a shotgun to the face that can stop them before they hurt you. The officer had maneuvered as much as he could, but he was limited by the stairs behind him (you do NOT want to try to navigate stairs backwards under adrenaline!) a wall approximately 45 degrees to his right, and another about the same to his left. Mr. Knives was able to maneuver such that his fatal funnel (area right in front of a person) was directed straight at the officer. He was directed to drop the knife, refused, directed to stop, and advanced.

Means, Opportunity, and Intent. He certainly had the means to attack the officer (knife in this case, but could be any weapon). He had the opportunity (officer directly in front, no room for the officer to move, inside attack range). And his actions showed intent.

The only remaining question is, "Was the officer present in a law enforcement capacity, and was his presence a legitimate law enforcement need?" The first answer is "yes." The second is also "yes" - he was searching for a hit-and-run driver, and he was allowed in the house by the woman, who indicated the suspect was inside, and armed.

I don't have any problems with what occurred, other than to wish the officer well in dealing with the trauma of taking a human life.

I agree.

I strongly suspect this may have been a suicide by cop, although we'll most likely never know for sure. The guy who could tell us isn't available for interview.

In the video circumstance, the suspect advanced on the officer with the knife without any prior verbal communication in a dim light situation with almost no maneuvering room. This left the officer no reasonable choice but to defend himself. However, the information at the beginning of the call indicated that the subject was suicidal, not homicidal. He also didn't make the type of determined lunge that would have been typical in a case of fully formed intent to harm the officer.

In fact, the subject didn't make any clear move that looked like an actual attack, although he was clearly menacing the officer who was most certainly in deadly danger. The subject also dropped the knife and fell to the floor immediately immediately from the shots even though from a physical standpoint he was quite likely capable of attacking for at least a few seconds after he was hit. These circumstances are more consistent with suicide by cop than they are with an attempted murder of an officer.

My suspicion comes from similar circumstances I encountered during my LE career. One incident in particular was fairly close to this one, although there were also some very significant differences from the one under discussion here.

The situation was a self declared suicidal youth armed with a knife who I was negotiating with from across a living room. He suddenly shut down verbally and lunged at me from about 10 feet away. His action easily met the requirements of justification to use deadly force, but just because you can doesn't mean you always should.

In this case I read his eyes and a lack of full commitment in his body language to indicate he didn't really intend to hurt me. I was fortunate to have prior communication with him over a period of 15 minutes or so to get an understanding of his mental state, good lighting, and a bit more maneuvering room than the officer in the video. I was able to move off the line of attack and cock the baton in my support hand (which I had kept hidden from him behind my leg until that time) to attack his knife hand if he redirected and resumed the attack. I was fully confident that I could disarm him with the baton didn't draw my firearm because I didn't intend to use it. The subject stopped his advance and I was able to talk him out of the knife.

My backup officer must have read the situation the same because, although he did draw, he held his fire as well.

From the post incident interview, it was determined that the subject's actual intent was to get me to shoot and kill him to relieve him from having to deal with a very emotionally painful personal situation.

I'm glad I made the decision I did in that case and would make the same one again in the exact same circumstances if I still had the same levels of skill, strength, and reflexes I had then - which I no longer do.

In the situation in the video where a subject who has been avoiding interacting with an officer suddenly advanced toward him with a knife in a confined space with no maneuvering room, I see no reasonable option other than the choice the officer in the video made.