Drawing weapon vs. firing

[dwhitley]

I think really these examples are not everyday real world... first of all if 3 guys are going to cause you harm.. walking up to you and then flanking you is not the most common I think element of surprise is typical... so again your pushed to the ground and your being attacked I have no problems shooting at that point. But again what I feel is a threat a grand jury may not. And if they are the ones that think gun laws are not strict enough well my butt is gone... so yea me I do carry at my store in my car and I will carry all the time once my permit comes in, but I still think you have to really consider what will happen when it comes to he said she said type deal... your in the park and its you the robber... he attacks you not enough to cause harm but does attack.. you shoot no one sees this he is dead you call police.. Hmmm what then... thats what I am talking about... becomes a fine line. Me I am going to take every route I can so that I do not have to shoot. You come into my home with out permission you will be shot... you try to steal my property you will be shot... out and about in the public well that is a whole different subject.... D

[fm2]

LCP - there are a few classes I know of that cover that kind of training with role players etc.... USSA has one called CQT, ShivWorks has PUC & ECQC 1-2, and PDT's the Test class.

There's a short promo video here:
http://www.usshootingacademy.com/traini ... aspx?id=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a link to PDT
http://www.personaldefensetraining.com/ ... t=test.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


dw - I think they are good examples. If the BG's can intimidate you into giving up some money without being overt, that may be appealing to them. There risk is low, from afar they look like they are just talking, they can get position on you easier, they don't need a gun cause they have #'s and they can escalate the force or catch you if you run if they choose.

My cousin was approached by 3 young guys while he was filling up at the pump, at about 2 AM after getting off work. They closed to twice arms length and said "give me some money", he tells them "no, I don't have any money, What do you need money for anyway?". They kinda moved to bookend him and say " I need money for books,....school books" He tells them "No, leave me alone". They look around and start to move closer and he gets his S&W nickle model 19 out of his waist band and tells them " you don't wanna mess with me". They back away and say something about them just joking and beat feet.

[dwhitley]

Yes that is what I am talking about.. He could have fired the moment they moved in on him, but he used his weapon to get them to back away... now the issue is they could have had a gun and shot him, I am glad though it worked out for him... Thanks for the links.. I will check into them... DW

[Excaliber]

I think really these examples are not everyday real world... first of all if 3 guys are going to cause you harm.. walking up to you and then flanking you is not the most common I think element of surprise is typical... so again your pushed to the ground and your being attacked I have no problems shooting at that point. But again what I feel is a threat a grand jury may not. And if they are the ones that think gun laws are not strict enough well my butt is gone... so yea me I do carry at my store in my car and I will carry all the time once my permit comes in, but I still think you have to really consider what will happen when it comes to he said she said type deal... your in the park and its you the robber... he attacks you not enough to cause harm but does attack.. you shoot no one sees this he is dead you call police.. Hmmm what then... thats what I am talking about... becomes a fine line. Me I am going to take every route I can so that I do not have to shoot. You come into my home with out permission you will be shot... you try to steal my property you will be shot... out and about in the public well that is a whole different subject.... D

My cousin was approached by 3 young guys while he was filling up at the pump, at about 2 AM after getting off work. They closed to twice arms length and said "give me some money", he tells them "no, I don't have any money, What do you need money for anyway?". They kinda moved to bookend him and say " I need money for books,....school books" He tells them "No, leave me alone". They look around and start to move closer and he gets his S&W nickle model 19 out of his waist band and tells them " you don't wanna mess with me". They back away and say something about them just joking and beat feet.

The intimidation approach by multiple actors is extremely common, as fm2's post confirms. It is a situation you are very likely to have to deal with at some point, and it's well worth giving thought to.

If you wait to act until you're surprised and pushed to the ground, your prognosis will be very poor indeed and the BG's will end up with both your money and your gun.

[dwhitley]

Please dont take me wrong.. I really enjoy these post and I am learning from them. I am new at this. Not with guns, but being able to carry and defend myself and family. I just think its a fine line as to shooting someone over a certain issue or getting them to just retreat with out using force. I go to a gun range every weekend and I hear a lot of guys saying yea I was attacked I would do this or that.. and its almost like they want it to happen. I am in the mind set that killing someone is just not what I want to do, but only as a last resort.... Now I have to be honest if I was in my home and someone was breaking in then yes they are going to be shot. I am lucky as I have 2 dogs, one being our gaurd dog that I am sure will alert me if an intruder in near by....

[Excaliber]

Please dont take me wrong.. I really enjoy these post and I am learning from them. I am new at this. Not with guns, but being able to carry and defend myself and family. I just think its a fine line as to shooting someone over a certain issue or getting them to just retreat with out using force. I go to a gun range every weekend and I hear a lot of guys saying yea I was attacked I would do this or that.. and its almost like they want it to happen. I am in the mind set that killing someone is just not what I want to do, but only as a last resort.... Now I have to be honest if I was in my home and someone was breaking in then yes they are going to be shot. I am lucky as I have 2 dogs, one being our gaurd dog that I am sure will alert me if an intruder in near by....

David, you are taking the right approach here. No sane person who truly understands the implications of a deadly force incident wants to be involved in one, and will take every reasonable measure to avoid or evade street incidents, or even retreat in some cases rather than engage with deadly force when other options are available. Even home break in situations sometimes present options other than deadly force when the intruder is focused on theft and does not offer aggression to occupants. These folks will almost always take an opportunity to flee or submit and wait for police when confronted with the threat of deadly force, thereby removing the need to use it. The ones who are focused on harming people are another story, and need to be dealt with decisively.

The "armchair commandos" at your range who are just itching for an opportunity to use deadly force are generally the most clueless and the most likely to end up in an unjustified or highly controversial shooting that will cost them big time in both the short and the long term in ways they can't foresee.

[dwhitley]

Excaliber you really seem to be very cool headed... I like the advice you give... thanks for all the input... I am not sure about the home thing as I think if my dogs barked and I am a light sleeper and I saw someone at the back door I think as soon as the door breaks or the glass I would unload... To me that is just stepping across the line to invade anothers home... I may fire a very close warning shot or hit a leg or something, but really that is one thing I know I would be ok with .... D

[bdickens]

Oh, no! Not the old "warning shot" and "shoot to wound" myths again!

What if the BG doesn't heed your warning? That just gave him all the extra time he needs to kill you.

Leg shots are impractical at best. More likely to be impossible.

The only reason to shoot is to stop the threat right now and the best chance of doing that is to shoot at the high center chest area which, incidentally, also gives you the best chance of killing your attacker. It's unfortunate, but human physiology is just like that. If you are not willing to accept that, you have no business using a gun for self-defense.

[dwhitley]

Let me explain.... if my dogs alert me when I come out of my master bedroom... my stairs are right there.. you look down and there is my backdoor... so I am going to shoot at that door and if the BG gets lucky and get hit in a leg and as you stated not likely... well good for him.. but as soon as he breaks the window or bust the door he is getting shot... I have no worries about shooting him.. but if he lives well then I guess it was luck for him... D

[Excaliber]

Let me explain.... if my dogs alert me when I come out of my master bedroom... my stairs are right there.. you look down and there is my backdoor... so I am going to shoot at that door and if the BG gets lucky and get hit in a leg and as you stated not likely... well good for him.. but as soon as he breaks the window or bust the door he is getting shot... I have no worries about shooting him.. but if he lives well then I guess it was luck for him... D

Firing a bunch of rounds at a closed door and hoping to hit an intruder is not a sound tactic. Every round fired lands somewhere, and those that don't hit the intruder may not end up in a good place. Those that do hit the intruder may not be stopping wounds, and he may respond with escalated motivation and aggression.

As bdickens points out, shooting to wound is not sound either - a wound in the upper leg stands a very real chance of hitting the femoral artery, which will result in a fatality in around 3 minutes without immediate and competent trauma care. It's not an immediate fight stopping wound though - and stopping the threat as quickly as possible should be the objective when deadly force is used. The upper chest is a far better target that is much more likely to produce a rapid stop.

From your description of your home, you have a tactically strong high ground position above your back door. A good way to take advantage of it is to strongly reinforce your rear door (high quality 1 inch throw deadbolt mated with reinforced strike attached with 3 inch screws that go through the door frame and into the 2 x 4 behind it, impact resistant safety film on the glass to keep the glass from breaking when struck, and a barricade bar device between the door knob and the floor). This makes it really difficult, time consuming, and noisy to get through the door - this works very much in your favor, and may discourage the intruder from coming in at all.

You can place yourself at an even greater advantage and the intruder at more of a disadvantage by lying prone at the top of your stairs to reduce your exposure to your forearms and part of your head, and by using a high intensity strobe flashlight to illuminate the target, wreck his night vision, and disorient him so he'll have a very difficult time trying to see or fire accurately at you if he is armed.

Reinforcing your bedroom door in a manner similar to that described above would give you and your family another barrier between you and an intruder if the intruder should make it through the door and into an unknown location inside the house. Searching for him yourself under these circumstances is as close to you can come to suicide without just outright shooting yourself in the head. A far better tactic is to retreat to the reinforced safe room, take up a position of cover from which you could engage an intruder who attempts to come through the "fatal funnel" of the doorway, and stay on the line with law enforcement until they arrive and secure the house.

I hope this "other perspective" provides a bit more food for thought.

[Liberty]

Its interesting that the subject of warning shots and shooting so as not to kill, comes up in a thread about force vs deadly force. Once you have pulled the trigger you have exerted deadly force, whether its a warning sho or just trying to wing him.

[dwhitley]

I understand.. actually my back door is a strong door.. thats what my security company calls it.. reinforced... It has a glass window with blinds in the middle of the glass... the glass can take a direct hit with a golf ball and not even crack.... I have thought this out.. my fence has sheared off nails sticking out as I have a bayou behind me so if they want to come over the fence they are going to cut their hands..... My backyard looks almost daylight at night because of the light... I really dont think I will get broke into.. my issue is I own a company and I always see on the news people being followed home and then robbed or killed.. My wife and I have a plan... our daughter is in a room next to ours and our closet has a small door to her room. So my wife knows to get her 9MM and go to her room and I will has you say take the high ground at that stairs and once the door opens BG will be shot... When I say shoot through the door I guess I am thinking of I dont want them in my house at all. But the bottome line is once the German shepherd is activated she will be at that door so he may run... but if he comes through he will be shot. I have worked all kinds of thought processes through my mind and both my wife and daughter.... We hope to be prepared and never have to use it.. but if need be we will... I do have a question... I have seen on the news here in Houston car jackings and robberies are up and I only carry right now in my truck to and from work... I carry at home in my holster and when I leave its in my holster unless I have to get out which then I leave in my console of my truck. If I stop to get gas can I keep in on me while pumping gas?

[nils]

"If I stop to get gas can I keep in on me while pumping gas?"-David

Absolutely not. That is 100% against the law until you receive your CHL....if you're caught doing it, you can kiss it goodbye....and you're freedom for a little while as well. Was this a serious question?[

[dwhitley]

I did not know if it would be allowed based on the castle doctrine law.... I have not done that, but wanted to clarify because when I leave my house I have it on me I get in my car and I usually go to my office (which I own) and I carry while there as well. But if I stop or get of my truck I leave it in my locked console. Just kind of strange that you can carry it to protect yourself while in the car but what if you are around the car and to me pumping gas has be become a dangerous thing to do at least in Houston, Tx.... D

[nils]

I agree, but that's why we all are getting our CHL..because crime is available everywhere we go. Good luck.