Selling a Pistol

[cyphertext]

So you think it is wrong for me to have a written record of all my guns in case I lose or have one stolen? It would be hard to pinpoint which remington 870 I sold and which one was stolen if I don't have it documented on my part. I don't exactly like you pinning me to the left winged extremists for what I do personally. My information is not for public record, so please reword yourself.

Keeping records of your own personal firearms for insurance reporting, etc. is fine... what I do not agree with, and would not allow you to do, is to copy my information down, such as my DL #, or my CHL #. If you are selling the firearm to me, it is no longer your property...

So you ARE ACCUSING ME of something, when you don't even know me or my beliefs. You have no legit grounds, please refrain from making absurd accusations about people you do not know.

So, please tell me what you would do with the info you record on the bill of sale if you sell a gun. Why do you need it, if not to provide it to the police or other government official if they came to ask about a particular firearm? Are you saying that you would not provide that info to them?

I better not talk about selling a truck, Next thing you know people might be calling me a racist or something else crazy.

Don't even know where this came from... but you say I am the one who is nuts.

Apparently 2 and 2 are getting farther apart, but I won't judge you.

Again... what? what the hell are you talking about? Trucks and racists... I never brought this up... you made this all up on your own.

Philosophy? You're trying to accuse me of being some sort of government gun grabber. I would agree, but your standing is still unclear and confusing to me. It seems like you believe and follow the law as it is written, no matter what it is. It would seem more likely you would be the one to go along with gun laws, then the person who is non-trusting of others and just trying to keep his own. I especially don't trust the government, so I take offense when people say otherwise.

And name calling? Okay, I'm not sure where I insulted you, but I hope you take your judgements and accusations and troll elsewhere. Thanks for the chat.

I think my stance is quite clear, but I will spell it out again.... There is no legal requirement for any documentation for a private sale. As such, I will not allow someone to copy my DL#, CHL#, or other personal information as a condition of the sale. I will gladly show you ID and CHL, but I will not let you copy it. If that is your condition to sell a firearm to me, then we would not have a deal. You would find another buyer, and I would find another firearm to purchase without the same conditions that you set.

As far as name calling... Saying I am nuts, etc... I never called you a communist either... you put that word in there.

[Charlies.Contingency]

So you think it is wrong for me to have a written record of all my guns in case I lose or have one stolen? It would be hard to pinpoint which remington 870 I sold and which one was stolen if I don't have it documented on my part. I don't exactly like you pinning me to the left winged extremists for what I do personally. My information is not for public record, so please reword yourself.

Keeping records of your own personal firearms for insurance reporting, etc. is fine... what I do not agree with, and would not allow you to do, is to copy my information down, such as my DL #, or my CHL #. If you are selling the firearm to me, it is no longer your property...

So you are saying that I am not even allowed to have your name, because it is no longer my gun? I know the law doesn't cover much, but I personally believe there is a line in this that crosses into irresponsibility.

So you ARE ACCUSING ME of something, when you don't even know me or my beliefs. You have no legit grounds, please refrain from making absurd accusations about people you do not know.

So, please tell me what you would do with the info you record on the bill of sale if you sell a gun. Why do you need it, if not to provide it to the police or other government official if they came to ask about a particular firearm? Are you saying that you would not provide that info to them?

I would be able to identify which firearm they are referring to, and tell them that I sold it. Should by chance it was used in a notable crime such as a murder or robbery, I would feel obliged to let them know who I sold it to depending on the circumstances. Otherwise, it's none of their business. That's just me though.

Philosophy? You're trying to accuse me of being some sort of government gun grabber. I would agree, but your standing is still unclear and confusing to me. It seems like you believe and follow the law as it is written, no matter what it is. It would seem more likely you would be the one to go along with gun laws, then the person who is non-trusting of others and just trying to keep his own. I especially don't trust the government, so I take offense when people say otherwise.

And name calling? Okay, I'm not sure where I insulted you, but I hope you take your judgements and accusations and troll elsewhere. Thanks for the chat.

I think my stance is quite clear, but I will spell it out again.... There is no legal requirement for any documentation for a private sale. As such, I will not allow someone to copy my DL#, CHL#, or other personal information as a condition of the sale. I will gladly show you ID and CHL, but I will not let you copy it. If that is your condition to sell a firearm to me, then we would not have a deal. You would find another buyer, and I would find another firearm to purchase without the same conditions that you set.

That's fine, that is your standing, and I have mine.

As far as name calling... Saying I am nuts, etc...

So you know, I tried to back track and find what you are talking about, but I specifically try to avoid insulting others.

[RPBrown]

Gentlemen, there is no need or place on this forum for the innuendo's that are being tossed about. The OP's question has been asked and answered and lots of options given. If one does not want to show an ID when asked by the seller, then don't buy it. Everyone had different requirements that they feel will keep them "safe" although not required. To the seller, if you want to see an ID and they don't want to show it, don't sell to them. It's that simple. There is no reason for all of the name calling and insults, at least on this forum.

[Abraham]

Plus, if any poster's posts consistently annoy you, you can to the top right of the page, click on your name, follow the prompts so that you no longer see the annoying poster's posts.

[cyphertext]

Plus, if any poster's posts consistently annoy you, you can to the top right of the page, click on your name, follow the prompts so that you no longer see the annoying poster's posts.

I don't think Charlie and I are "annoying" each other... just discussing a complex issue such as this over an internet forum is difficult. I'm sure that if we were discussing this over a meal, face to face, we would walk away as friends. Perhaps still disagreeing, but no ill will towards one another.

Besides, if everyone just ignored everyone who they disagree with, there wouldn't be much discussion on the forum.

[cyphertext]

I would be able to identify which firearm they are referring to, and tell them that I sold it. Should by chance it was used in a notable crime such as a murder or robbery, I would feel obliged to let them know who I sold it to depending on the circumstances. Otherwise, it's none of their business. That's just me though.

Charlie, let me ask you this... Do you remember when Diane Feinstein was pushing for the "Assault Weapons Ban"? Do you remember when she said that if she could have gotten the votes, she would have said "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_LaBJvI0BI

Just for arguments sake, let's say she got those votes... "Assault weapons" are now banned. No grandfathering... turn them in. A nice ATF agent visits you because they see from a 4473 that you purchased an AR-15, serial #XYZ, and their records indicate that rifle has not been turned in. You respond that you have sold it. They ask who you sold it to. What is your next move?


This very reason is why I don't do anymore than what is required by law. Maybe I am a crazy conspiracy theorist, but when the anti gun politicians are on record saying that they would confiscate them, or try to force registration as they have in Connecticut, it doesn't seem like a theory anymore... it seems as if it could happen.

[Charlies.Contingency]

I would be able to identify which firearm they are referring to, and tell them that I sold it. Should by chance it was used in a notable crime such as a murder or robbery, I would feel obliged to let them know who I sold it to depending on the circumstances. Otherwise, it's none of their business. That's just me though.

Charlie, let me ask you this... Do you remember when Diane Feinstein was pushing for the "Assault Weapons Ban"? Do you remember when she said that if she could have gotten the votes, she would have said "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_LaBJvI0BI

Just for arguments sake, let's say she got those votes... "Assault weapons" are now banned. No grandfathering... turn them in. A nice ATF agent visits you because they see from a 4473 that you purchased an AR-15, serial #XYZ, and their records indicate that rifle has not been turned in. You respond that you have sold it. They ask who you sold it to. What is your next move?


This very reason is why I don't do anymore than what is required by law. Maybe I am a crazy conspiracy theorist, but when the anti gun politicians are on record saying that they would confiscate them, or try to force registration as they have in Connecticut, it doesn't seem like a theory anymore... it seems as if it could happen.

I actually don't remember much of that looney's statements, and more than I remember what the rest of the looney's are talking about, because I do my best to ignore them, lest I get myself worked up over nothing.

I think that if they went to round up all the guns, I would be obliged to tell them that I sold all my guns and ammo, and that I forgot who I sold them to, and I no longer have any guns anymore, nor do I have knowledge of their current whereabouts. I'm pretty sure some others on here might have similar plans... I just pray we never come to that day, because I know where I stand, and I will not bow.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Plus, if any poster's posts consistently annoy you, you can to the top right of the page, click on your name, follow the prompts so that you no longer see the annoying poster's posts.

I don't think Charlie and I are "annoying" each other... just discussing a complex issue such as this over an internet forum is difficult. I'm sure that if we were discussing this over a meal, face to face, we would walk away as friends. Perhaps still disagreeing, but no ill will towards one another.

Besides, if everyone just ignored everyone who they disagree with, there wouldn't be much discussion on the forum.

I agree, a key part in communication is delivering the message. Text alone severely restricts my ability to communicate properly, as compared to talking.

And it bores me when too many of us agree. What is there to talk about with some of my like minded fellows on here? Not much, besides, yeah, what he said, I agree, m-hmmm, yep.

[sass2924]

This provides some great information since I have just moved here. The one thing I learned while living in CA is to follow the letter of the law, no more no less.

[JALLEN]

This provides some great information since I have just moved here. The one thing I learned while living in CA is to follow the letter of the law, no more no less.

Living in California may have given you the wrong lesson. There, the government wants to do your thinking, so you don't have to. All the procedures are irksome, seemingly comprehensive. In free states, legal requirements are minimal, and you are tasked with being responsible, using good judgment or suffering consequences.

Most life long Native Texans understand and accept this. This is what sets them apart from others, less fortunates. I was born and raised here, but spent 45 years in the socialist hellhole of the PRC, and it took some getting used to when I moved back.

As I have often said, and oftener observed, Real Texans are among the world's finest people, hard working, responsible, self-reliant, courteous, helpful to strangers, protective of women and children, cheerful, and undaunted by adversity.

Try to be one!

People moving here should understand and try to emulate this.

[sass2924]

... legal requirements are minimal, and you are tasked with being responsible, using good judgment or suffering consequences...

What part of my 2 sentence post disagreed with this?

[puma guy]

... legal requirements are minimal, and you are tasked with being responsible, using good judgment or suffering consequences...

What part of my 2 sentence post disagreed with this?

sass2924, Welcome to the forum. I don't want to put words in JAllen's mouth but I think he was just making an observation about the differences and entered your quote only to let you know he was merely responding to you, i.e. identifying you, not challenging your post.

[JALLEN]

... legal requirements are minimal, and you are tasked with being responsible, using good judgment or suffering consequences...

What part of my 2 sentence post disagreed with this?

"Following the letter of the law, no more, no less."

Here, you could follow the letter of the law, no more, no less, and sell a .40 cal pistol with 15 round magazine to a guy who goes out and uses it to assassinate a Deputy Sheriff.

I wish to avoid dreadful occurrences like that and do what I can to preclude them by being as sure as I can that I am not putting a firearm in the hands of a criminal or psychopath.

[sass2924]

... legal requirements are minimal, and you are tasked with being responsible, using good judgment or suffering consequences...

What part of my 2 sentence post disagreed with this?

"Following the letter of the law, no more, no less."

Here, you could follow the letter of the law, no more, no less, and sell a .40 cal pistol with 15 round magazine to a guy who goes out and uses it to assassinate a Deputy Sheriff.

I wish to avoid dreadful occurrences like that and do what I can to preclude them by being as sure as I can that I am not putting a firearm in the hands of a criminal or psychopath.

Then I would say don't complete any ftf transactions, only go thru a ffl because you will never truly know the background of the person. Following the letter of the law does not relive the seller of using common sense and acting as a "reasonable and prudent" person.

[cyphertext]

Here, you could follow the letter of the law, no more, no less, and sell a .40 cal pistol with 15 round magazine to a guy who goes out and uses it to assassinate a Deputy Sheriff.

I wish to avoid dreadful occurrences like that and do what I can to preclude them by being as sure as I can that I am not putting a firearm in the hands of a criminal or psychopath.

Unless you have a crystal ball, I'm not sure how you think you can be sure of that. If a man has ill intentions, your bill of sale is not going to stop that.

You do realize that many shootings occur with legally acquired firearms, purchased through a FFL, right? That means that with that sale either the purchaser had a license allowing the bypass of the NICS check, or a NICS check was done. So, if folks who sell guns for a living with background checks can't tell the future, what makes you think you can?

A couple of websites for reference... data provided by anti's, so can't speak to the validity of every shooting quoted...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... shootings/

http://csgv.org/blog/2013/mass-shootings-by-good-guys/