Creating carry policies for non-profit center

[TXlaw1]

I am a pro-bono (uncompenstated) attorney for a non-profit senior center located right next to an elementary school. The Board of Directors is considering what laws affect CHL holders carrying firearms in the center and what appropriate policies might be adopted.

I have already researched the Federal Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1990 and feel pretty comfortable in my understanding of its impact. Generally Texas CHL holders are not restricted by this Act in Texas - though anyone with a CHL issued by any other state - even with reciprocity - IS restricted by this Act.

But I've been trying - without success - to search the TexasCHLForum.com for information about creating policies regarding employer/employee carrying in the center as well as visitors carrying that would comply with Texas law. And the issue of appropriate signs is being considered.

I'd like to find some discussion and guidance for creating such policies - without ending up with the center being a no-gun, free-fire zone - as well as precisely what signs can/should be posted and what not to post.

Any suggestions, links to other relevant threads, to Texas law, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[joelamosobadiah]

I am a pro-bono (uncompenstated) attorney for a non-profit senior center located right next to an elementary school. The Board of Directors is considering what laws affect CHL holders carrying firearms in the center and what appropriate policies might be adopted.

I have already researched the Federal Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1990 and feel pretty comfortable in my understanding of its impact. Generally Texas CHL holders are not restricted by this Act in Texas - though anyone with a CHL issued by any other state - even with reciprocity - IS restricted by this Act.

But I've been trying - without success - to search the TexasCHLForum.com for information about creating policies regarding employer/employee carrying in the center as well as visitors carrying that would comply with Texas law. And the issue of appropriate signs is being considered.

I'd like to find some discussion and guidance for creating such policies - without ending up with the center being a no-gun, free-fire zone - as well as precisely what signs can/should be posted and what not to post.

Any suggestions, links to other relevant threads, to Texas law, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Are you receiving pressure to create policies/post signage? Unless there is a reason to make any policy or post any signage, I would just not address the issue at all.

[TVegas]

Any signage with the word "no" and "guns" would likely be understood the same way by anyone who would take advantage of a gun-free zone. They probably wouldn't take the time to evaluate exactly what the sign means from a legal standpoint.

[Jago668]

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... htm#52.061
Covers the part about not being allowed to ban firearms in the employees vehicles. I don't know the code but you can just by policy ban employees from carrying on the job. For the public conceal carry you need a 30.06 sign (penal code for that one should be easy enough to figure out), for open carry you need a 30.07 sign.

If it is a place that has been open and hasn't had any problems I don't see any reason to mess with anything. If it is just now opening up, I still don't see a reason to deal with a nonissue. You are dealing with an extremely law abiding segment of the state. Unless you start having problems I'd just leave it alone.

[RoyGBiv]

I am a pro-bono (uncompenstated) attorney for a non-profit senior center located right next to an elementary school. The Board of Directors is considering what laws affect CHL holders carrying firearms in the center and what appropriate policies might be adopted.

I have already researched the Federal Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1990 and feel pretty comfortable in my understanding of its impact. Generally Texas CHL holders are not restricted by this Act in Texas - though anyone with a CHL issued by any other state - even with reciprocity - IS restricted by this Act.

But I've been trying - without success - to search the TexasCHLForum.com for information about creating policies regarding employer/employee carrying in the center as well as visitors carrying that would comply with Texas law. And the issue of appropriate signs is being considered.

I'd like to find some discussion and guidance for creating such policies - without ending up with the center being a no-gun, free-fire zone - as well as precisely what signs can/should be posted and what not to post.

Any suggestions, links to other relevant threads, to Texas law, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Just for clarity, you want to create policy that ALLOWS carry inside your facility?
Concealed carry today?
Open carry come January?

[TXlaw1]

Are you receiving pressure to create policies/post signage? Unless there is a reason to make any policy or post any signage, I would just not address the issue at all.

Thanks for asking. The Board is generally pro-CHL carry on site recognizing proven qualification of CHL holders, at least as to visitors. But Board wants policies so staff/employees will know whether they can or cannot carry while working (CHL only) and parking too, especially considering the school next door and the Federal Act forbidding possession within 1,000 feet. And any signage should be welcoming of CHL but prohibitive of carry by non-CHL.

With the school so close and that Federal Act, I believe it is imperative that we at least establish policies for the employees - even if no signs are posted. If one employee can carry having a CHL, another one might think they can carry too - or have a gun in their car. While I understand an employer cannot ban possession in the employee's car, I think we need to advise them by policy that the Federal Act prevents them from doing so within 1,000 feet of the school.

Thanks for feedback. I wish we could do nothing but Board does want to do something - probably the least restrictive means possible. So I am really seeking some links to law or examples of policy statements, etc. And a private message could be used if a poster did not want to make it public on this great forum. Thank you Mr. Cotton.

[TXlaw1]

Just for clarity, you want to create policy that ALLOWS carry inside your facility?
Concealed carry today?
Open carry come January?

Hope my previous reply answers your first two questions. Never open carry as there would be seniors with diminished mental ability who would clearly not understand if they saw a gun.

[Jago668]

I'm certainly not a lawyer, so I apologize if I don't understand it correctly. Since the employees would be on private property wouldn't that exclude them from the federal law provided they either had it locked up inside the vehicle, or had a chl? If I am reading it correctly wouldn't something along the lines of "Due to *stupid federal law* and our proximity to a school if you have a gun in your vehicle it must be unloaded and in a lockbox. We are supportive of licensed carry and you may do so as long as your license is issued by Texas. *Stupid federal law* requires the license to be issued by the state in which you are carrying." Then if they don't want open carry then just change it to say "We are supportive of licensed conceal carry and you may do so as long as your license is issued by Texas. However it is against policy for employees to open carry."

However that is if I understood the federal law correctly. However if I read that correctly if you don't have a chl, or the pistol isn't unloaded in a lockbox. Then driving within 1,000 feet of a school violates that law. Have to love the "common sense" gun laws that come out of DC.

[joelamosobadiah]

Are you receiving pressure to create policies/post signage? Unless there is a reason to make any policy or post any signage, I would just not address the issue at all.

Thanks for asking. The Board is generally pro-CHL carry on site recognizing proven qualification of CHL holders, at least as to visitors. But Board wants policies so staff/employees will know whether they can or cannot carry while working (CHL only) and parking too, especially considering the school next door and the Federal Act forbidding possession within 1,000 feet. And any signage should be welcoming of CHL but prohibitive of carry by non-CHL.

With the school so close and that Federal Act, I believe it is imperative that we at least establish policies for the employees - even if no signs are posted. If one employee can carry having a CHL, another one might think they can carry too - or have a gun in their car. While I understand an employer cannot ban possession in the employee's car, I think we need to advise them by policy that the Federal Act prevents them from doing so within 1,000 feet of the school.

Thanks for feedback. I wish we could do nothing but Board does want to do something - probably the least restrictive means possible. So I am really seeking some links to law or examples of policy statements, etc. And a private message could be used if a poster did not want to make it public on this great forum. Thank you Mr. Cotton.

This clears up a lot... As for legal wording and citations, I'm not the best to help there, but seems like you have a very straightforward approach:

Public signage:
1. 30.07
2. Possible signage specifically specifying legal concealed carry is welcome

Policy Handbook:
1. Quote federal law regarding schools and applicability to guns in vehicles, etc.
2. State the company welcomes legal concealed carry
3. Possibly a need for disclaimer statements
4. Specify open carry by employees is prohibited

I think you're looking for a more formal direction to head with detailed guidance, but from what you said, it looks like this would be the bird's eye view of what's needed

[MeMelYup]

Are you receiving pressure to create policies/post signage? Unless there is a reason to make any policy or post any signage, I would just not address the issue at all.

Thanks for asking. The Board is generally pro-CHL carry on site recognizing proven qualification of CHL holders, at least as to visitors. But Board wants policies so staff/employees will know whether they can or cannot carry while working (CHL only) and parking too, especially considering the school next door and the Federal Act forbidding possession within 1,000 feet. And any signage should be welcoming of CHL but prohibitive of carry by non-CHL.

With the school so close and that Federal Act, I believe it is imperative that we at least establish policies for the employees - even if no signs are posted. If one employee can carry having a CHL, another one might think they can carry too - or have a gun in their car. While I understand an employer cannot ban possession in the employee's car, I think we need to advise them by policy that the Federal Act prevents them from doing so within 1,000 feet of the school.

Thanks for feedback. I wish we could do nothing but Board does want to do something - probably the least restrictive means possible. So I am really seeking some links to law or examples of policy statements, etc. And a private message could be used if a poster did not want to make it public on this great forum. Thank you Mr. Cotton.

This clears up a lot... As for legal wording and citations, I'm not the best to help there, but seems like you have a very straightforward approach:

Public signage:
1. 30.07
2. Possible signage specifically specifying legal concealed carry is welcome

Policy Handbook:
1. Quote federal law regarding schools and applicability to guns in vehicles, etc.
2. State the company welcomes legal concealed carry
3. Possibly a need for disclaimer statements
4. Specify open carry by employees is prohibited

I think you're looking for a more formal direction to head with detailed guidance, but from what you said, it looks like this would be the bird's eye view of what's needed

For public signage #2, I would use wording similar to the blue alcohol sign.
For policy handbook #2, I would use wording similar to the alcohol blue sign then add "persons with Texas License to Carry a Handgun are exempt from firearm policy."

[Charles L. Cotton]

The federal gun free school zone act exempts your home or place of employment, so your employees can have a gun in their car, or in the building, even if they don't have a CHL. If the owner(s) want a "no guns" in the building policy for employees, that can be communicated in an employee manual, a sign in the lunch room, or pretty much however you like. It doesn't sound like they want to prosecute, so there's no need not comply with TPC §30.06. Posting a TPC §30.07 sign will take care of both employees and guests in terms of open-carry.

Whether or not the owner(s) allow employees to carry concealed in the building is a business/safety consideration. I used to represent a nursing home chain and I've been in numerous facilities over the years. As you know, many facilities have mentally unstable residents, some of whom can be violent or easily upset. If they are going to allow concealed-carry on the job, I would recommend they require a holster and possibly a retention holster. (I'm talking about a concealed holster, not an exposed "duty rig.") Carrying in a pocket or non-retention holster while having to wrestle with a resident/patient is not a recipe for a happy ending. That's much closer to a LEO setting in terms of one's handgun being at risk for "snatching."

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Here's the federal code that exempts private property. 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(i): Subpart (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm - (i) on private property not part of the school grounds;

Chas.

[TXlaw1]

The federal gun free school zone act exempts your home or place of employment, so your employees can have a gun in their car, or in the building, even if they don't have a CHL. If the owner(s) want a "no guns" in the building policy for employees, that can be communicated in an employee manual, a sign in the lunch room, or pretty much however you like. It doesn't sound like they want to prosecute, so there's no need not comply with TPC §30.06. Posting a TPC §30.07 sign will take care of both employees and guests in terms of open-carry.

Whether or not the owner(s) allow employees to carry concealed in the building is a business/safety consideration. I used to represent a nursing home chain and I've been in numerous facilities over the years. As you know, many facilities have mentally unstable residents, some of whom can be violent or easily upset. If they are going to allow concealed-carry on the job, I would recommend they require a holster and possibly a retention holster. (I'm talking about a concealed holster, not an exposed "duty rig.") Carrying in a pocket or non-retention holster while having to wrestle with a resident/patient is not a recipe for a happy ending. That's much closer to a LEO setting in terms of one's handgun being at risk for "snatching."

Chas.

Thank you, Mr. Cotton, for your informative and helpful responses. And thanks to the other forum members who have contributed their ideas. While other comments are welcome, I think I have enough to move forward with at this time.

I especially appreciate your comments about requirements for anyone who has a CHL and is carrying anywhere near the seniors who might have mental/dementia issues to require a holster, possibly a retention holster. And we certainly don't want an exposed holster and no open carry so the TPC §30.07 signs seem appropriate.

As to the private property exception of the Federal law, I'll have to make it clear in the employee policy that they must park in the center's parking lot and not on the street so this exception would apply.

I'm going to be interested in the response of the Board to my recommendations, hoping they will generally be adopted so the participants will be a little safer and the center will not be a free-fire zone. Much obliged to all y'all.

[MeMelYup]

Give us a heads up on what you finally submit and on what they approve, pls.

[TXlaw1]

Give us a heads up on what you finally submit and on what they approve, pls.

I shall try to do so though it is likely to be mid-November at the earliest and maybe a month or two later than that. With all the great input that has been contributed, I'd like to be able to give back to this thread.