Sign Validity

[arthurgarzajr]

Recently a business has posted 30.07 signs at all their front entrances. However, I think they're invalid because the sign appears to have letters smaller than 1" block lettering and it is not displayed in Spanish, it only includes English.

My wife let the person in charge of these signs know about their invalidity.

So my question is, could the sign really be valid when "coupled" with handout cards, and what do you think he means by "even greater offense"?

Here's a picture of the sign

[Breny414]

I've wondered about not having the Spanish version, too... does not having the sign in Spanish make it invalid for the English version, or just for non-English Spanish speaking folks?

Also, it's my understanding that if they share their policy with you verbally (a card may suffice for that), then you have been warned, and the sign validity is no longer pertinent for you.

[ELB]

..., and what do you think he means by "even greater offense"?
...

HB 910 essentially changed the level of offense for a license holder entering property with a handgun after he has been given notice not to do so from Class A to Class C misdemeanor. However, if the license holder is told to leave the property and fails to do so (and this can be shown a trial), it becomes a Class A misdemeanor.

[jed]

[RoyGBiv]

Why would anyone tell a business owner their sign is not valid (unless they were about to be arrested, in which case you should be telling it to the LEO)? What would be the goal of that conversation?

"Your sign is not valid so you should take it down.....". Seriously?

[gljjt]

The sign is pretty close. Their intent is clear. They are most certainly will give you oral notice or perhaps a card if you OC. In my opinion this is the wrong hill to die on. I would leave it alone. CC.

[rtschl]

The statute states the sign must be in both English and Spanish:

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

Note also that it has to be at EACH entrance. But a violation is a Class A not Class C. Remember, 30.07 did not become law before HB910 so it did not include 30.07 in the bill.

[jed]

It's the same as I have been saying. If I see 30.06 or 30.07 in any form on the front door, I'm out. They clearly don't want a see a gun inside this building, CC must be ok. If you choose to continue to do business there, untuck your shirt.

At the risk of getting beaten up..........some on this forum are just as zealous about proper signage as the OCT bunch is about OC.

[ScottDLS]

The statute states the sign must be in both English and Spanish:

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

Note also that it has to be at EACH entrance. But a violation is a Class A not Class C. Remember, 30.07 did not become law before HB910 so it did not include 30.07 in the bill.

It's a class C just like 30.06 after 1/1/16.

TXPC 30.07
....
(d)An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor
punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is
a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense
that, after entering the property, the license holder was
personally given the notice by oral communication described by
Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.
....

[NotRPB]

My wife let the person in charge of these signs know about their invalidity and this was his response:

"They conform when "coupled" with our handout cards. I've met several times with counsel. Come by and I'll explain. (In fact, even greater offense.)"

So my question is, could the sign really be valid when "coupled" with handout cards, and what do you think he means by "even greater offense"?

Interesting that there's no 30.06 sign right?


Ok ...

I'd bet that, the "cards" might contain 30.07 notice AND 30.06 notice such that THEN you can't conceal carry there EITHER... the Partially correct, but not in Spanish/ 30.07 sign trick drew you out so now they'll know who concealed carries in their bank... "Come on by so I can give you the card with 30.06+30.07 notice too" (No font size requirement on cards

Neat trick, put up a potentially invalid sign so only NEW licensees will say something, then hand out the double sided card 30.06+30.07 to THE NEW INEXPERIENCED LICENSEES, while allowing seasoned licensees to just carry concealed, because they know not to say anything ...

Concealed is concealed


"CARDS" see "Written communication" means: below
No font size requirement
No Spanish requirement

Probably could print 30.07 notice on one side and 30.06 notice on the other side in small print.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm

30.06
(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign ...



30.07

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.07, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with an openly carried handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a handgun that is carried openly"; or

(B) a sign ...

That said, many years ago, i "said something" about an invalid sign once ... it's tempting ... But there is a procedure for handling invalid "here's what I wish" signs ... My procedure is to smile as I walk by. (If it's only a 30.07 sign valid or not, or a Ghostbuster sign, or a sign saying "No Smoking Allowed" and there's no 30.06 sign, and you're carrying concealed, where's the problem?)

I guess if it's that important to wife to open carry to the bank, changing banks might be in order, letting them know the reason the account is closing.

My bank has had a Gunbuster sign for about 30 years, it's peeling off, no one notices it or cares. I'd hate to try figure out how many concealed handguns are in that bank, but I know there's more than mine. I have not needed to tell the bank to re-glue their sign up, or to remove it and post signs restricting law abiding people but allowing only criminals to carry

[rtschl]

It's a class C just like 30.06 after 1/1/16.

TXPC 30.07
....
(d)An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor
punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is
a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense
that, after entering the property, the license holder was
personally given the notice by oral communication described by
Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.
....

ScottDLS,

Thanks for correcting me. I mixed that up with Texas Govt. Code 411.209 where fines could be imposed on governments for posting invalid 30.06 but not 30.07 because 30.07 had not passed yet.

[Vol Texan]

Why would anyone tell a business owner their sign is not valid (unless they were about to be arrested, in which case you should be telling it to the LEO)? What would be the goal of that conversation?

"Your sign is not valid so you should take it down.....". Seriously?

You would be amazed at the number of folks on here who advocate that approach. Insanity, if you ask me.

[stingeragent]

Clearly not valid as it isn't in spanish. I wouldn't be the one to test it though. They obviously dont' want open carry, so as soon as you walk in they are gonna tell you to leave anyways.

[mreed911]

Is the sign valid? No.

Is the intent there? Yes.

Is there a criminal offense for crossing just the sign? No. The sign doesn't meet the required element of notice as defined in 30.07.

Can you expect to get verbal notice once you cross the threshold? Yes.

Is there a criminal offense if you stay? Yes.

It's up to you to decide if you'll patronize a business that posts 30.07 (but allows concealed carry under 30.06) or not.

Personally, I'll judge it by reasonableness. I could find a valid reason for a bank to not want open carry. I could also find another bank. YMMV.

TSRA makes great "notice" cards for this. Search TSRA CHL CARD on Google for more information.