Bad Info Being Put Out

[howdy]

I attended a workshop this morning at my very large Methodist Church. My Senior Minister approached me after the meeting to have a talk. (I taught his CHL course and he is pro CHL) His talk concerned a meeting he had attended last week. The meeting was for Ministers of all denominations had had several hundred in attendance. An Attorney that represents some large school organization was leading a discussion about the current LTC law and how it would impact Churches. The Attorney outright told them that carry in a Church, either concealed or open, is NOT allowed under any circumstances by Texas law. He told them the 30.06/30.07 signs were necessary to prevent this. My Minister told the Attorney that he was wrong and the Attorney asked him if he was a Lawyer, basically cutting off discussion. I need to see if my Minister can get the name of this Attorney so he can be approached to be set straight. I have a feeling he knows the law and is purposely giving bad advise.

[baldeagle]

Wouldn't that be malpractice?

[C-dub]

I would not have let him shut me down. I would have responded to him with, "So, no lawyer has ever been wrong about a law?"

[cbunt1]

Wouldn't that be malpractice?

Probably.

But by the pure facts, he is exactly right.

The law says that carry in any church is illegal. This is true.

It also says that a 30.06/30.07 sign must be posted to prevent carry.

And this is where we get into the discussion about facts not necessarily being "truth."

The law still states that carry in a church is unlawful. Several paragraphs (2+ pages later in the CHL-16 if memory serves) it says UNLESS "effective notice" has been given, carry in a church is illegal....

So...TRUTH: You can carry in a church unless you've received effective notice (just like anywhere else).

But both "Facts" mentioned by the OP are in fact true...so the attorney is either clueless, splitting hairs, or intentionally misleading people. I'm sure he would argue that he's stating the facts, and letting the listener draw his/her own conclusions though.

ETA: I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. But I will gladly spew my opinions to anyone who will listen.

[Solaris]

The Attorney outright told them that carry in a Church, either concealed or open, is NOT allowed under any circumstances by Texas law.

It is my life observation that most people who read 46.035 failed to read it all the way, and miss section (i), including attorneys. I really wish I could get into legally binding bets over this, I would not need to play Powerball.

[wally775]

Solaris.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I attended a workshop this morning at my very large Methodist Church. My Senior Minister approached me after the meeting to have a talk. (I taught his CHL course and he is pro CHL) His talk concerned a meeting he had attended last week. The meeting was for Ministers of all denominations had had several hundred in attendance. An Attorney that represents some large school organization was leading a discussion about the current LTC law and how it would impact Churches. The Attorney outright told them that carry in a Church, either concealed or open, is NOT allowed under any circumstances by Texas law. He told them the 30.06/30.07 signs were necessary to prevent this. My Minister told the Attorney that he was wrong and the Attorney asked him if he was a Lawyer, basically cutting off discussion. I need to see if my Minister can get the name of this Attorney so he can be approached to be set straight. I have a feeling he knows the law and is purposely giving bad advise.

Please do post this guy's name. I'll will be happy to speak to the group if they want to hear accurate information about churches.

Chas.

[SA-TX]

... The Attorney outright told them that carry in a Church, either concealed or open, is NOT allowed under any circumstances by Texas law. He told them the 30.06/30.07 signs were necessary to prevent this. ...

Did your quote leave out the word "not" as in "He told them the 30.06/30.07 signs were NOT necessary to prevent this"?

Without that not, his two sentences make no sense. If carry in church is already "NOT allowed under any circumstances Texas law", then why would signs be "necessary to prevent this"?

If my supposition is true (and he told them 30.06/30.07 isn't necessary), he just helped many churches NOT post. As for you and your pastor, carry on.

SA-TX

[rotor]

The Texas Municipal League guide had this wrong too. This attorney though may have an ulterior motive because he is telling them to post 30.06 and 30.07 signs which then would make carry illegal.

[zimmerdesignz]

Text of subsection effective on August 01, 2016

(a-3) Notwithstanding Subsection (a) or Section 46.03(a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally carries a concealed handgun on a portion of a premises located on the campus of an institution of higher education in this state on which the carrying of a concealed handgun is prohibited by rules, regulations, or other provisions established under Section 411.2031(d-1), Government Code, provided the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06 with respect to that portion.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing facility licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing facility administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, in the room or rooms where a meeting of a governmental entity is held and if the meeting is an open meeting subject to Chapter 551, Government Code, and the entity provided notice as required by that chapter.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(1-a) "Institution of higher education" and "private or independent institution of higher education" have the meanings assigned by Section 61.003, Education Code.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.



(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or 30.07.

Looks like he is right?????? Or am I reading wrong? Effective Aug 2016

[Oldgringo]

Texas law notwithstanding, the official Methodist position/doctrine/constitution, or whatever it may be called, states that the United Methodist Church is anti-gun and guns are not allowed, etc., etc.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/gun-violence

[SA-TX]

Texas law notwithstanding, the official Methodist position/doctrine/constitution, or whatever it may be called, states that the United Methodist Church is anti-gun and guns are not allowed, etc., etc.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/gun-violence

Yes, this is an area where the church and I differ. I carry in my church as it wasn't posted in the past and I'll check again tomorrow/soon. While my senior pastor hasn't said anything about carrying in church, he has made clear his views on guns (he likes 'em and ain't giving 'em up). Concealed means concealed.

SA-TX

[rotor]

Text of subsection effective on August 01, 2016

(a-3) Notwithstanding Subsection (a) or Section 46.03(a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally carries a concealed handgun on a portion of a premises located on the campus of an institution of higher education in this state on which the carrying of a concealed handgun is prohibited by rules, regulations, or other provisions established under Section 411.2031(d-1), Government Code, provided the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06 with respect to that portion.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing facility licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing facility administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, in the room or rooms where a meeting of a governmental entity is held and if the meeting is an open meeting subject to Chapter 551, Government Code, and the entity provided notice as required by that chapter.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(1-a) "Institution of higher education" and "private or independent institution of higher education" have the meanings assigned by Section 61.003, Education Code.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.



(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or 30.07.

Looks like he is right?????? Or am I reading wrong? Effective Aug 2016

The subsection (i) part has been effective for some time now. There is reference to 30.07 in (i) now and perhaps some campus carry stuff makes part of this effective in Aug 2016.

[baldeagle]

... The Attorney outright told them that carry in a Church, either concealed or open, is NOT allowed under any circumstances by Texas law. He told them the 30.06/30.07 signs were necessary to prevent this. ...

Did your quote leave out the word "not" as in "He told them the 30.06/30.07 signs were NOT necessary to prevent this"?

Without that not, his two sentences make no sense.

Here's how it would make perfect sense. He knows full well that carry is allowed in places of worship (subsection (i)), so he tells them they have to post the signs so they won't be surprised by someone walking in to their unsigned place. But he wants to leave them with the impression that carrying in places of worship is absolutely forbidden by law, which is false.

[Oldgringo]

Texas law notwithstanding, the official Methodist position/doctrine/constitution, or whatever it may be called, states that the United Methodist Church is anti-gun and guns are not allowed, etc., etc.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/gun-violence

Yes, this is an area where the church and I differ. I carry in my church as it wasn't posted in the past and I'll check again tomorrow/soon. While my senior pastor hasn't said anything about carrying in church, he has made clear his views on guns (he likes 'em and ain't giving 'em up). Concealed means concealed.

SA-TX

We too are Methodists. I'd be more than a lot surprised to hear that come from the pulpit in our small town church but if and when it does, it will be time for the Oldgringo and his CC.

I suspect the anti-gun stance is probably not limited to the Methodists and Catholics?

Best wishes,

Greg