Would this sign work for our Church

[thetexan]

This is what I thought... In other words a Level IV PPO & his associated company could legally work under contract to a Church and carry CONCEALED. I wasn't sure if TAM was implying that Church security can never carry concealed.

From what I have been told DPS is adamant that a church can not organize or "look" like security without being licensed. That includes wearing any type of identification as security, stationing people, training for scenarios etc. If you put someone in your children's area to "keep an eye on things" or have someone "stationed" anywhere (parking lot, worship center, etc.) then DPS considers that security and those people cannot be armed because they are acting as security. Calling it something other than security like sheepdog, safety team, etc. does not give you a pass.

If you are an usher, deacon, teacher, minister, member, etc. and carry while in that capacity that is not an issue as your role is not security.

I'm curious as to whether this DPS view would be constitutional. It seems like a clear violation of the 2A to take away my right to keep and bear arms just because a church leader asked me to stand near the front door and greet people as they walk in. What is the relevant law that DPS is relying on here?

Am I misunderstanding your post? What if the church leaders don't even know that I am armed when they ask me to do something in a specific area?

I don't believe there is any rule that says that a person who is stationed in order to provide some form of monitoring can not carry a licensed gun. What you can not do is use that gun in the carrying out of the mission. You are not a security guard. I believe what the DPS is stating in the stongest terms is that you are prohibited from providing armed security services using a Subchapter H license and must avoid the appearance of providing armed security service (although I don't see any rule to that affect for the later).

Yes you have the right to carry a handgun at church if not prohibited under .06/.07. If the church official instructs you that you may not carry that gun while performing monitoring duties then you have been notified as per 30.06 and 30.07 and there goes your state privilege to carry (not constitutional privilege) out the window as per state statutes which you accepted as authoritative over you when you got your license.

So you haven't given up anything. I suggest that if you can't stand to be without your gun, then don't agree to be a greeter, or agree to watch over things.

tex

[jmorris]

.....
I'm curious as to whether this DPS view would be constitutional. It seems like a clear violation of the 2A to take away my right to keep and bear arms just because a church leader asked me to stand near the front door and greet people as they walk in. What is the relevant law that DPS is relying on here?

Am I misunderstanding your post? What if the church leaders don't even know that I am armed when they ask me to do something in a specific area?

As I understand it, if you're asked to greet people at the door you're not providing security and can carry. If you're asked to stand near the door and keep an eye out for suspicious activity you're providing security and can't. If (like my church) you're asked to man a booth near the parking lot to provide assistance to newcomers, you're not providing security and can carry. If you're asked to man a booth near the parking lot to keep an eye on the lot, you're providing security and can't. Etc.

So the key (IMHO) is as long as you're not asked to provide a security function you can carry. Doesn't mean that while you're manning the newcomer booth you can't also keep an eye on the parking lot.

I imagine the law that authorizes this is:
TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 35 PRIVATE SECURITY

[rtschl]

DPS has held this position since 2007 due to Texas Occupations Code 1702: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... C.1702.htm

DPS FAQ: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/PSB/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm

May 10, 2007
A volunteer security patrol made up of church members would generally require licensing under the provisions of Section 1702.108 or 1702.222, regardless of whether any compensation is received as a result of the activities. The only exception to licensing provided by the legislature for nonprofit and civic organizations is found in Section 1702.327, which applies specifically to nonprofit and civic organizations that employ peace officers under certain circumstances and would not be applicable here.

However, there is one exception to licensing under Chapter 1702 provided by the legislature that could arguably apply, which can be found in section 1702.323 (“Security department of Private Business”). This exception would allow volunteers to provide security services exclusively for one church, as long as they do not carry firearms and as long as they do not wear “a uniform with any type of badge commonly associated with security personnel or law enforcement or a patch or apparel with ‘security’ on the patch or apparel.” See Tex. Occ. Code §1702.323(a) & (d)(2). Thus, the wearing of a uniform or any apparel containing the word “security” would subject them to the licensing requirements of the act. emphasis mine.