Extrajudicial Killing

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Beiruty
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Extrajudicial Killing

#1

Post by Beiruty » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:32 am

In US, extrajudicial Killing (assisination) is legal if and only if the president of United States delcated the target,a US citizen, as enemy combatant and ordered his elimination.

First of all, the above is unconstitutional but no one cared about that fact. Obama did use his unconstitutional authority in the case of US Citizen eliminated in Yemen by hellfire attack.

In KSA, MBS thought that what goes for goose goes for the gander and ordered the elimination of KSA citizen by declaring him a traitor.

I do not see any difference but the political storm is like day and night.

Note, my post is not to start a flame war or defend anyone, rather to discuss historical facts and incidents in colocial terms.
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srothstein
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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#2

Post by srothstein » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:12 am

The difference is actually very easy to see. Notice who is most upset about the KSA killing. This same group is also not upset about anything Obama did and generally ignores the Constitution. In this case, they are upset because the current president is not upset about it. This is American politics being played out. I do not see very many conservatives upset about the killing, though I am not sure if it is because they support the president, they see the hypocrisy, or they see what happens in other countries to their citizens as none of our business.

Another case I recently saw of the same thing was the judge who said the president had no authority to issue an order that goes against the written immigration law. I was wondering how we could get the case about ending the program created by Obama that went against the immigration laws in front of him. A different judge said it was unconstitutional to enforce immigration laws the way they are written.

This is a sign of how divided our country has become. Our major media is very biased in its reporting and is actively trying (IMO) to help manipulate public opinion. Unfortunately, I see very little sign of anything getting any better in the near future.

To address the killings more directly, I will point out that assassination has long been used as a tool by various governments. It has also been long used by our government, even though its public acknowledgement is more recent. In a lot of cases, the assassination has been disguised by a kangaroo court or by other laws, such as the historical policy that an enemy soldier caught in our uniform was automatically a spy and could be executed on the spot. The US has also tried to, as a general rule, to cover it with a trial and capital sentence. This is the kangaroo courts I was talking about.

I disagree with assassination as a policy but I am not sure anyone could ever do anything to stop it.
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RoyGBiv
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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#3

Post by RoyGBiv » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:30 am

Beiruty wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:32 am
In US, extrajudicial Killing (assisination) is legal if and only if the president of United States delcated the target,a US citizen, as enemy combatant and ordered his elimination.

First of all, the above is unconstitutional but no one cared about that fact. Obama did use his unconstitutional authority in the case of US Citizen eliminated in Yemen by hellfire attack.

In KSA, MBS thought that what goes for goose goes for the gander and ordered the elimination of KSA citizen by declaring him a traitor.

I do not see any difference but the political storm is like day and night.

Note, my post is not to start a flame war or defend anyone, rather to discuss historical facts and incidents in colocial terms.
Interesting perspective Beiruty. Thanks.
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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#4

Post by MaduroBU » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:51 am

The house of Saud is a sworn enemy of the US and literally everything that we stand for. Murdering dissidents is evil, but Kashoggi's murder doesn't crack the top 100 evil things that those barbarians have done this year.

Where was the outcry over MbS beating members of the royal family to death in the Riyadh Ritz Carlton to raise capital? Oh, that was just an internal squabble, nothing to concern ourselves with. The NYT ran one article in March. WaPo ran one article last December, then nothing for 10 months, and finally ran FIVE articles about the detention and murder of the wealthy since Kashoggi died. So now the media found its spine over one guy? I'm not going to bat for Saudi, but the inconsistency by our media is laughable. Either it's wrong to murder your people or it isn't.


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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#5

Post by rotor » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:07 pm

The largest killer of it's citizens has always been government. So what else is new.


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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#6

Post by Chaparral » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:12 pm

I think the difference between Al Qaeda, ISIS, or the Taliban, and Jamal Khashoggi is that the Virginia- based, U.S. resident, Washington Post journalist can’t, by American standards, be honestly considered as an enemy combatant of the Saudi Kingdom. The Saudis, however, may see it differently.

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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#7

Post by Beiruty » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:40 pm

Just to Clarify, KSA and Al Saoud are protocrate of the British Empire since 200 yrs ago. After world war 2 US took over that role. President Trump said loud and clear without US protection Al Saoud House would be deposed
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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#8

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:02 pm

srothstein wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:12 am
The difference is actually very easy to see. Notice who is most upset about the KSA killing. This same group is also not upset about anything Obama did and generally ignores the Constitution. In this case, they are upset because the current president is not upset about it. This is American politics being played out. I do not see very many conservatives upset about the killing, though I am not sure if it is because they support the president, they see the hypocrisy, or they see what happens in other countries to their citizens as none of our business.
Pretty much everything he said ^^....

I think that most conservatives aren’t that upset because they largely think it’s none of our business. Had Trump withheld his opinion, they’d probably still feel that way. But the Democrat Steno Pool (AKA “the media”) is pushing a narrative that is not backed up by the facts.
  • Khashoggi was a US Resident: NO, he was not. Even his closest associates acknowledge that he was in the US on a temporary visa, and did not possess a Green Card. He was NOT a US resident.
  • Khashoggi was a Journalist: NO, he was not....at least not as a full time profession. He was a “contributor” to some news organizations, but there is also good reason to believe that he was a Saudi intelligence operative who went rogue. If I can find the link, I’ll provide it here.
  • Khashoggi was a Good Guy: No, he was an active member and proponent of Muslim Brotherhood - a terrorism sponsor.
As a general rule, I don’t think political assassination is a good thing. OTH, if the US had had the opportunity to assassinate Adolf Hitler circa 1940 and didn’t take it, I’d be disappointed (again) by our gov’t. But whether or not it is a good idea, if a foreign gov’t wants to kill a bad person who occasionally visits the US to subvert its politics here at home, I’m good with that.
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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#9

Post by Chaparral » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:09 pm

I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject, but I have worked closely with, and considered friends, several people who were supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood. My impression is that authoritarian leaders such as General Sisi, and the Saudi King, make them out to be terrorists because they oppose corrupt, authoritarian rule; so it is not surprising that they are portrayed as terrorists, just as the Assad regime portrayed the Syrian rebels as terrorists. I also get the impression that the Muslim Brotherhood, while certainly being rooted in Islamic religious principles, is also the closest thing there is to an organized proponent of democracy and fair justice in the Middle Eastern Muslim world. One might consider them Islamic “progressives”, but in a region of unelected dictators, that may not be entirely bad.


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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#10

Post by K.Mooneyham » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:28 pm

SNIP
The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:02 pm

[*]Khashoggi was a Journalist: NO, he was not....at least not as a full time profession. He was a “contributor” to some news organizations, but there is also good reason to believe that he was a Saudi intelligence operative who went rogue. If I can find the link, I’ll provide it here.
I did not know that highlighted bit. Now it makes a little more sense, the Saudis were cleaning up a "loose end". Is anyone going to say with a straight face that doesn't happen among Western nations, and that it didn't happen even more often during the Cold War?


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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#11

Post by Chaparral » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:48 pm

Yeah, I guess. Like Putin poisoning Litvinenko with Polonium, and Skripal with Novichok.


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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#12

Post by K.Mooneyham » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:25 pm

Chaparral wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:48 pm
Yeah, I guess. Like Putin poisoning Litvinenko with Polonium, and Skripal with Novichok.
Did I say I condoned that? No, I did not. I said it makes more sense now, as in why it was done. Also, I'm not seeing anything of any decency regarding the MB. Just seems like another terrorist/terrorist supporting organization.


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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#13

Post by Chaparral » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:56 pm

I never meant to suggest that anyone on this forum condoned extrajudicial killing. I was just pointing out other recent examples of the killing of rogue spys.

Again, I’m no expert, but this is what the Muslim Brotherhood says they believe in...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

“According to a spokesman on its English-language website, the Muslim Brotherhood believes in reform, democracy, freedom of assembly, press, etc.

We believe that the political reform is the true and natural gateway for all other kinds of reform. We have announced our acceptance of democracy that acknowledges political pluralism, the peaceful rotation of power and the fact that the nation is the source of all powers. As we see it, political reform includes the termination of the state of emergency, restoring public freedoms, including the right to establish political parties, whatever their tendencies may be, and the freedom of the press, freedom of criticism and thought, freedom of peaceful demonstrations, freedom of assembly, etc. It also includes the dismantling of all exceptional courts and the annulment of all exceptional laws, establishing the independence of the judiciary, enabling the judiciary to fully and truly supervise general elections so as to ensure that they authentically express people's will, removing all obstacles that restrict the functioning of civil society organizations, etc.“

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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#14

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:59 am

Chaparral wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:56 pm
I never meant to suggest that anyone on this forum condoned extrajudicial killing. I was just pointing out other recent examples of the killing of rogue spys.

Again, I’m no expert, but this is what the Muslim Brotherhood says they believe in...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

“According to a spokesman on its English-language website, the Muslim Brotherhood believes in reform, democracy, freedom of assembly, press, etc.

We believe that the political reform is the true and natural gateway for all other kinds of reform. We have announced our acceptance of democracy that acknowledges political pluralism, the peaceful rotation of power and the fact that the nation is the source of all powers. As we see it, political reform includes the termination of the state of emergency, restoring public freedoms, including the right to establish political parties, whatever their tendencies may be, and the freedom of the press, freedom of criticism and thought, freedom of peaceful demonstrations, freedom of assembly, etc. It also includes the dismantling of all exceptional courts and the annulment of all exceptional laws, establishing the independence of the judiciary, enabling the judiciary to fully and truly supervise general elections so as to ensure that they authentically express people's will, removing all obstacles that restrict the functioning of civil society organizations, etc.“
Irish Bob O’Rourke says he believes in our 2nd Amendment rights too. Go by what MB does, not what they say. They’re neck deep in Hamas and other terror orgs.
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Re: Extrajudicial Killing

#15

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:25 pm

More details about who Khashoggi was....

This article details 10 important questions about Khashoggi: https://thefederalist.com/2018/10/15/10 ... narrative/.
7. How Did a Man with Extensive Ties to Intelligence Services as Well as Extremist Groups Get a Green Card?
Khashoggi writes a column for the Washington Post and worked at a number of Saudi media organizations, print and broadcast. Broadly speaking, he is a journalist, as the U.S. press is describing him—with the caveat that most Arab journalists primarily serve the political masters who pay and protect them, and often represent the interests of intelligence services.

Khashoggi was an adviser to former Saudi intelligence chief Turki al-Faisal when he was ambassador to London, then Washington. Khashoggi reportedly joined the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1970s and continues to advocate for political Islam. He called the late Saudi dissident Osama Bin Laden a friend and mourned his death. It appears that Khasshogi may have been something like Riyadh’s back channel to al-Qaeda, at least prior to 9/11.

So how did a former Saudi official with ties to intelligence services, connections to the Muslim Brotherhood, and a long history with a terrorist responsible for nearly 3,000 deaths on U.S. soil obtain permanent resident status?

Khashoggi must have important American patrons, because even though he reportedly moved to the United States in 2017, he already had a green card. According to the Washington Post’s David Ignatius: “Friends helped Khashoggi obtain a visa that allowed him to stay in the United States as a permanent resident.” So who vouched for him and why?

It might be useful to put these questions to former CIA director John Brennan. He was station chief in Riyadh from 1996-1999, when Khashoggi’s patron Turki al-Faisal was head of Saudi’s general intelligence directorate.
It’s worth noting that this article was written back in October. Since then, people who were close to Khashoggi are on record as saying that he did NOT have a Green Card, and was here on a temporary visa. Whichever version of the story is true, his ties to Brennan pretty much cement the fact that he was not just a reporter.

There is another article I saw a while back which goes into greater detail about Khashoggi’s intelligence connection, and if I can find it, I’ll post it here. But the above article covers some of the issues.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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