DO you break the law when???

ctxpta · Post by **ctxpta** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:49 pm

As a CHL holder/CHL Instructor/Level 3 Commissioned Security Officer Instructor one of the question I ask the class before we get involved with the use of force continuum is this...Do you break the law if the following happens??

Person trying to rob you shots at you. Their shot hits you. They appear to be taking another shot. You draw your weapon and shot the person. The person dies.

Did you commit a crime?

SC1903A3 · Post by **SC1903A3** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:04 pm

Yes you have committed murder. You also have a positive defense to prosecution

Venus Pax · Post by **Venus Pax** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:20 pm

I would think that if any situation would call for deadly force, this would be it.

boomerang · Post by **boomerang** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:26 pm

If the grand jury returns a no bill, was a crime committed?

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it...

frankie_the_yankee · Post by **frankie_the_yankee** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:52 pm

SC1903A3 wrote:Yes you have committed murder. You also have a positive defense to prosecution

No. You have committed a homicide. And that homicide will be considered justified by the responding cops, the DA, and the grand jury.

But I find myself puzzled by the need to ask the question. Someone is robbing you, they shoot at you, and appear to be getting ready to do it again, and there's a question about whether you are committing a crime if you then shoot them?

Doesn't make any sense.

Liberty · Post by **Liberty** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:13 pm

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
SC1903A3 wrote:Yes you have committed murder. You also have a positive defense to prosecution
No. You have committed a homicide. And that homicide will be considered justified by the responding cops, the DA, and the grand jury.

But I find myself puzzled by the need to ask the question. Someone is robbing you, they shoot at you, and appear to be getting ready to do it again, and there's a question about whether you are committing a crime if you then shoot them?

Doesn't make any sense.

Does the penal code recognize any such thing as Homocide. I know they don't have anything called manslaughter. I don't remember seeing homoside in the codes, but I have newver read them all.

The question makes a lot of sense in the context of a CHL class and understanding how to read the penal codes. It seems the instructor is trying to show how understand the penal code. There is only about 10 hours to each class. An instructor does his students a faver when they teach the student how to learn.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:27 pm

Liberty wrote: Does the penal code recognize any such thing as Homocide. I know they don't have anything called manslaughter. I don't remember seeing homoside in the codes, but I have newver read them all.

Both homicide and manslaughter are defined in the penal code.
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... m#19.01.00

9mmGuy · Post by **9mmGuy** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:37 pm

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
SC1903A3 wrote:Yes you have committed murder. You also have a positive defense to prosecution
No. You have committed a homicide. And that homicide will be considered justified by the responding cops, the DA, and the grand jury.

But I find myself puzzled by the need to ask the question. Someone is robbing you, they shoot at you, and appear to be getting ready to do it again, and there's a question about whether you are committing a crime if you then shoot them?

Doesn't make any sense.

thats kinda what i was thinking? i wouldnt think twice.

i mean if a person shoots at me and stands there with his weapon drawn (threat still being present) why would you not shoot back in self defense? I guess I donâ€™t understand the question.

AEA · Post by **AEA** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:01 pm

Here is the CLEAR answer for you........

If someone is shooting at you, return fire and eliminate the threat.
Regardless of what the Law is or isn't, you have to win the fight and live.

Get this into your head and live by it........
If you have to think twice about this when the time comes, you will already be dead!

frankie_the_yankee · Post by **frankie_the_yankee** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:03 pm

Xander wrote:
Liberty wrote: Does the penal code recognize any such thing as Homocide. I know they don't have anything called manslaughter. I don't remember seeing homoside in the codes, but I have newver read them all.

Both homicide and manslaughter are defined in the penal code.
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... m#19.01.00

The penal code defines "criminal homicide". Criminal homicide is just one type of homicide. There is another type not necessarily defined in the penal code, most likely because it's not a crime.

I simply stated that if you killed someone, you have committed a homicide. This comes straight from the dictionary.

Whether it is a murder or not depends on the circumstances. If the circumstances are criminal, it's a murder. (This comes from the penal code.) If the circumstances are not criminal, it is simply a homicide (or more precisely, a justifiable homicide). These are the types of homicides that get no billed.

The example given was so clearly that of a justifiable homicide that I felt the need to point out that the term "murder" was not proper to describe it.

I also felt that it was so clear cut a case of lawful self defense that I am puzzled why anyone would think that the law could be broken by shooting someone under those circumstances. I mean, if someone is robbing you and has already shot you once, I think that is about as clear cut as you can get.

So I don't see what purpose is served y the question.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:29 pm

frankie_the_yankee wrote: The penal code defines "criminal homicide". Criminal homicide is just one type of homicide. There is another type not necessarily defined in the penal code, most likely because it's not a crime.

I simply stated that if you killed someone, you have committed a homicide. This comes straight from the dictionary.

According to the penal code, if you intentionally kill someone, you've committed criminal homicide. I think that fairly well covers this scenario.

Fosforos · Post by **Fosforos** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:32 pm

Add me to the folks scrathing their heads at the question asked. How could you possibly have committed a crime in that scenario?

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:47 pm

I wouldn't think so...Sure, you shot back to stop them from continuing to shoot at you...

Thats called self-defense...

But the "technicians" have defined this per the penal code as some form of homicide...Technically this could be tagged as such, and I agree...

The only thing you could hope for is that as quickly as it can be classified as a "homicide", once the evidence of a self-defence situation is determined that that reality is publically broadcast as loudly as the original incidents conclusion...

But that would rely upon a media that is being carved up in another topic in this forum...

frankie_the_yankee · Post by **frankie_the_yankee** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:50 pm

Xander wrote:
frankie_the_yankee wrote: The penal code defines "criminal homicide". Criminal homicide is just one type of homicide. There is another type not necessarily defined in the penal code, most likely because it's not a crime.

I simply stated that if you killed someone, you have committed a homicide. This comes straight from the dictionary.
According to the penal code, if you intentionally kill someone, you've committed criminal homicide. I think that fairly well covers this scenario.

If your interpretation was correct, any act of lawful self defense would be a "criminal homicide".

But note this. Just because you intentionally use deadly force doesn't mean that you intended to kill the guy. We learn in personal protection class that we never "shoot to kill". We shoot to stop the attack.

So sure, if you intentionally kill someone it's a criminal homicide. It's not the killing that makes it so, it's the intent.

I would never intentionally kill anyone. I might use deadly force in certain circumstances. And the person that force is directed against might well die. But that would not be my intent. All I want to do is to stop the attack.

And I think it is pretty clear that an armed citizen who had just been robbed and shot, and who reasonably believed that he was going to be shot again, may well bring his firearm into play in an effort to stop the attack.

And it is clearly not a crime for him to do so in that scenario.

Wildscar · Post by **Wildscar** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:58 pm

For me even pointing a gun at me would be ebough for me to clear holster and stop them from shooting me.

We have all heard it and Ill say it again. I would rather stand before 12 strangers than be carried by 6 friends.

If you have to sit there and thing about shooting someone that trying to kill you then you needs to think about why you got your CHL in the first place. The BG has already made up their minds that they can pull the trigger. Have you