Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

The "What Works, What Doesn't," "Recommendations & Experiences"

Moderators: carlson1, Crossfire

Post Reply

Topic author
Lisa517
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#1

Post by Lisa517 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:10 pm

Regarding § 411.172 (e)(5), the code reads, "diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person suffers or has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition consisting of or relating to:" and then goes on to list a few select conditions. Would "at any time" include diagnoses during childhood or adolescence? Wouldn't those records be sealed, similar to juvenile criminal records?

For that matter, what sort of medical records can the government access under HIPAA for purposes like this?


crazy2medic
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:59 am

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#2

Post by crazy2medic » Wed May 01, 2019 6:42 pm

I know from working for a Neurologist, that anytime a person has a seizure the State can pull their drivers license for a year, if they are on medication and their condition is managed then following a seizure they must go six months without another seizure they can get their DL back! HIPPA doesn't really apply to a government agency if it is germane to that agency! As in the condition prescribed above! If somebody was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia or any psychiatric condition that could make them a danger to the general public then they could be prohibited from having a license to carry a handgun, once again it can be about wether their condition is well controlled and the treating doctor is willing to sign off on it!
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

User avatar

Keith B
Moderator
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 18216
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#3

Post by Keith B » Wed May 01, 2019 9:08 pm

Anytime would include juvenile records as well, unless sealed. HIPA does not apply in this case as they have the right to search through medical history.

If it was many many years ago and there have been no subsequent treatments, therapy, medications, etc, then if me, I would submit my application, list the event, and let the medical review board search for the info. It may not even exist any more and at most they might request you get a letter from a physician stating you are not dealing with they issue any longer.
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member

Psalm 82:3-4


Topic author
Lisa517
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#4

Post by Lisa517 » Thu May 02, 2019 9:47 am

So, completely unfettered access to all medical records as long as they can think of a reason why they should have it. Spooky.

Fortunately, it turned out that the kiddie therapist I saw in 2nd grade for ADHD didn't make any "official" diagnosis out of her "Concern," at the fact that I wouldn't make a mess with finger-paints and always drew people with giant heads and little bodys! Kooky woman. :roll: (She was not the one to diagnose the ADHD, btw. That part is legit! So don't be surprised if I occasionally wander off topic a little in here; just kinda nudge me back to the point if I need it! ;-) )

User avatar

WildBill
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 16978
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#5

Post by WildBill » Thu May 02, 2019 10:02 am

Lisa517 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:47 am
So, completely unfettered access to all medical records as long as they can think of a reason why they should have it. Spooky.

Fortunately, it turned out that the kiddie therapist I saw in 2nd grade for ADHD didn't make any "official" diagnosis out of her "Concern," at the fact that I wouldn't make a mess with finger-paints and always drew people with giant heads and little bodys! Kooky woman. :roll: (She was not the one to diagnose the ADHD, btw. That part is legit! So don't be surprised if I occasionally wander off topic a little in here; just kinda nudge me back to the point if I need it! ;-) )
Were these therapists licensed physicians?
NRA Endowment Member


Topic author
Lisa517
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#6

Post by Lisa517 » Thu May 02, 2019 10:05 am

Presumably they had some kind of medical/psychological training. I was 8, and I doubt my parents remember. :shrug:

Evidently she didn't do anything in terms of evaluation beyond tell my mother she was "concerned" that I would only dip my fingertips in the finger paints instead of splashing them randomly on the paper. I stopped seeing her shortly thereafter as my folks realized she was clearly looking for things that weren't there if she had to look to my finger-painting styles to find anything to be worried about!


Mike S
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#7

Post by Mike S » Thu May 02, 2019 10:17 am

Lisa,
Welcome to the forum!

To be a little more clear to the point that (I believe) Keith was trying to make, I don't believe the DPS has an inherent 'right' to review any medical records they want to (without a court order). However, as part of the LTC application process, you will sign a waiver granting the DPS permission to conduct the background check, which includes a review of the medical history. (It's been awhile since my initial/renewal applications, but I believe this is the case).

User avatar

Jusme
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 5060
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
Location: Johnson County, Texas

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#8

Post by Jusme » Thu May 02, 2019 11:05 am

Lisa517 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:05 am
Presumably they had some kind of medical/psychological training. I was 8, and I doubt my parents remember. :shrug:

Evidently she didn't do anything in terms of evaluation beyond tell my mother she was "concerned" that I would only dip my fingertips in the finger paints instead of splashing them randomly on the paper. I stopped seeing her shortly thereafter as my folks realized she was clearly looking for things that weren't there if she had to look to my finger-painting styles to find anything to be worried about!
Yeah I don't think unusual fingerpainting style would be disqualifying, I don't even think there would be any diagnosis, associated with that, to be disqualifying, especially at 8 years old, with no further, "concerning" behavior. I assume you now fingerpaint like all normal people?
Just kidding, welcome to the forum, if that was the only issue, I would not worry about it. Go get your LTC, keep us updated, and feel free to ask any questions.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:


Topic author
Lisa517
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#9

Post by Lisa517 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:21 am

Ironically, the only thing left now is finger... printing! :) Wish I could get them to take a new pic for the license itself instead of using my DL; hate that picture! Oh well, I'll try to be neat and tidy with the fingerprinting, without appearing too up-tight and "concerning" about it! :lol: Thanks!


Topic author
Lisa517
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#10

Post by Lisa517 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:24 am

Mike S wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:17 am
I don't believe the DPS has an inherent 'right' to review any medical records they want to (without a court order). However, as part of the LTC application process, you will sign a waiver granting the DPS permission to conduct the background check, which includes a review of the medical history. (It's been awhile since my initial/renewal applications, but I believe this is the case).
Fair enough. Wonder if I can get them to send me a copy... I'm sure stuff has gone missing over the years, as every time I find a doctor I like, they up and move to Hawaii or something! I always seem to have to start all over again and never have anything to give to the new doc.

User avatar

Keith B
Moderator
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 18216
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#11

Post by Keith B » Thu May 02, 2019 1:12 pm

ADHD is not a disqualifier. Here is the section related to psychiatric diagnoses:
(e) The following constitutes evidence that a person has a psychiatric disorder or
condition described by Subsection (d)(1):
(1) involuntary psychiatric hospitalization;
(2) psychiatric hospitalization;
(3) inpatient or residential substance abuse treatment in the preceding fiveyear period;
(4) diagnosis in the preceding five-year period by a licensed physician that the
person is dependent on alcohol, a controlled substance, or a similar substance;
or
(5) diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person suffers or
has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition consisting of or relating to:
(A) schizophrenia or delusional disorder;
(B) bipolar disorder;
(C) chronic dementia, whether caused by illness, brain defect, or brain injury;
(D) dissociative identity disorder;
(E) intermittent explosive disorder; or
(F) antisocial personality disorder.

(f) Notwithstanding Subsection (d), a person who has previously been diagnosed
as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subsection (d)
or listed in Subsection (e) is not because of that disorder or condition incapable
of exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage of a
handgun if the person provides the department with a certificate from a licensed
physician whose primary practice is in the field of psychiatry stating that the
psychiatric disorder or condition is in remission and is not reasonably likely to
develop at a future time.
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member

Psalm 82:3-4


Topic author
Lisa517
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#12

Post by Lisa517 » Thu May 02, 2019 2:45 pm

I know, Keith. I was just setting the stage for why I was seeing a child therapist in the first place; prior to said therapist being bothered by my wanting to be neat with the finger-paints and draw people with big, cartoonish heads.

User avatar

ScottDLS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:04 am
Location: DFW Area, TX

Re: Does "...at any time..." really mean ANY time?

#13

Post by ScottDLS » Thu May 02, 2019 4:54 pm

There have been sporadic reports here that the Medical Review Board or the people reviewing the applications have expanded the definition of disqualifying medical conditions beyond the plain text of the law. In my opinion, if you are not aware of having been diagnosed by a board certified (in the specialty related to the diagnosis) medical doctor with the EXACT conditions described in the LAW, then any other treatment is irrelevant to your application for a LTC. Unless RSD are going randomly approach every psychiatrist in every place you have lived fishing for your medical records while waving around your HIPPA release, I don't think the issue is likely to arise. However, I'm not going to include my 2nd grade school nurse's note saying my fingerpainting skills are reflective of deep psychological issues and a desire to harm others.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

Post Reply

Return to “New to CHL?”