El Paso Walmart Shooting

Reports of actual crimes and investigations, not hypothetical situations.

Moderators: carlson1, Keith B


imkopaka
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 515
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:30 pm
Location: Lamesa, TX

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#166

Post by imkopaka » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:03 pm

rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:38 am
TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf
How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon? :totap:
Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
Carry gun: Springfield XD Tactical .45


rotor
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#167

Post by rotor » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:15 pm

imkopaka wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:03 pm
rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:38 am
TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf
How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon? :totap:
I agree but they seem to define weapon as a handgun, illegal knife or club.


imkopaka
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 515
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:30 pm
Location: Lamesa, TX

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#168

Post by imkopaka » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:44 pm

rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:15 pm
imkopaka wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:03 pm
rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:38 am
TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf
How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon? :totap:
I agree but they seem to define weapon as a handgun, illegal knife or club.
Pages 35-36 wrote:Firearms on Licensed Premises
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) AB Code]
The Commission shall cancel a retail alcoholic beverage
permit or license if it is found, after notice and hearing, that
the permittee or licensee knowingly allowed a person to
possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises.

(See “Exceptions” below for instances when a person may
carry a firearm on the premises.
)

Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Section 46.02 Texas Penal Code]
A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun,
illegal knife, or club. (See § 46.02 Texas Penal Code for full
text.)
An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
An offense under this section is a third degree felony if the
offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a
permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages. (See
“Exceptions” below for instances when a person may carry
a firearm on a premises licensed or issued a permit by this
state to sell alcoholic beverages.)

Exceptions to Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) Alcoholic Beverage Code,
Section 46.15 Texas Penal Code]
Texas Peace Officer’s Guide
36
Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) of the Alcoholic Beverage
Code and Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code do not
apply to a person who:
1. holds a security officer commission issued under
Chapter 1702 by the Texas Occupations Code, if:
a. the person is engaged in the performance of the
person’s duties as a security officer;
b. the person is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
c. the weapon is in plain view;
2. is a peace officer;
3. is an alcoholic beverage licensee or permittee or
employee of a licensee or permittee if the person is
supervising the operation of the premises; or the firearm
is possessed for ceremonial and/or display purposes, if
such firearm is disabled from use as a firearm;
4. possesses a handgun and the person is licensed to
carry;
5. is engaged in an historic reenactment approved by the
Commission and no live ammunition is present; or
6. possesses a concealed handgun inside of or directly
en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person’s control and the person is not:
a. engaged in criminal activity other than a Class C
misdemeanor traffic or boating violation; or
b. prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
c. a member of a criminal street gang as defined in
the Penal Code.
Alcoholic Beverage Code
37
An offense still occurs if the licensee/permittee is on the
premises of a business that has a mixed beverage permit,
a private club registration permit, a wine and beer retailer’s
permit or a beer retailer’s on-premise license if the business
derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of
alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption.
This pretty clearly states that any firearm qualifies unless it is a licensed handgun, police, security detail, etc.
Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
Carry gun: Springfield XD Tactical .45


rotor
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#169

Post by rotor » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:26 pm

imkopaka wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:44 pm
rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:15 pm
imkopaka wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:03 pm
rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:38 am
TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf
How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon? :totap:
I agree but they seem to define weapon as a handgun, illegal knife or club.
Pages 35-36 wrote:Firearms on Licensed Premises
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) AB Code]
The Commission shall cancel a retail alcoholic beverage
permit or license if it is found, after notice and hearing, that
the permittee or licensee knowingly allowed a person to
possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises.

(See “Exceptions” below for instances when a person may
carry a firearm on the premises.
)

Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Section 46.02 Texas Penal Code]
A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun,
illegal knife, or club. (See § 46.02 Texas Penal Code for full
text.)
An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
An offense under this section is a third degree felony if the
offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a
permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages. (See
“Exceptions” below for instances when a person may carry
a firearm on a premises licensed or issued a permit by this
state to sell alcoholic beverages.)

Exceptions to Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) Alcoholic Beverage Code,
Section 46.15 Texas Penal Code]
Texas Peace Officer’s Guide
36
Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) of the Alcoholic Beverage
Code and Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code do not
apply to a person who:
1. holds a security officer commission issued under
Chapter 1702 by the Texas Occupations Code, if:
a. the person is engaged in the performance of the
person’s duties as a security officer;
b. the person is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
c. the weapon is in plain view;
2. is a peace officer;
3. is an alcoholic beverage licensee or permittee or
employee of a licensee or permittee if the person is
supervising the operation of the premises; or the firearm
is possessed for ceremonial and/or display purposes, if
such firearm is disabled from use as a firearm;
4. possesses a handgun and the person is licensed to
carry;
5. is engaged in an historic reenactment approved by the
Commission and no live ammunition is present; or
6. possesses a concealed handgun inside of or directly
en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person’s control and the person is not:
a. engaged in criminal activity other than a Class C
misdemeanor traffic or boating violation; or
b. prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
c. a member of a criminal street gang as defined in
the Penal Code.
Alcoholic Beverage Code
37
An offense still occurs if the licensee/permittee is on the
premises of a business that has a mixed beverage permit,
a private club registration permit, a wine and beer retailer’s
permit or a beer retailer’s on-premise license if the business
derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of
alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption.
This pretty clearly states that any firearm qualifies unless it is a licensed handgun, police, security detail, etc.
It appears that they can lose their license if they allow firearms but it is only an offense if you carry a handgun and are not ltc holder.

So the definition of weapon for the person carrying appears to be handgun, club or illegal knife.

Interpretation of these laws is confusing to say the least. Way off thread topic. In my interpretation the Wal-Mart could lose their license allowing firearms but the shooter was not in violation carrying a long gun. They do sell long guns at Wal-Mart or at least they used to. They are blue signed and sell firearms.

User avatar

RoyGBiv
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 8166
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Fort Worth

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#170

Post by RoyGBiv » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:45 pm

imkopaka wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:26 am
I have never seen a Walmart post anything barring guns,
Only WalMart I ever saw posting no gins signs was in NM, some place west of Albuquerque, IIRC.

I tried to go in there around 10:PM, saw the sign and drove on down the road. Lots of bad juju walking in the parking lot. Wasn't going to disarm. Didn't need that lip balm quite as bad as I thought. Bought some at the gas station by the interstate. Paid too much, but, that was just fine. :lol:
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
Image
Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek

User avatar

Topic author
carlson1
Moderator
Posts in topic: 11
Posts: 10516
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:11 am

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#171

Post by carlson1 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:16 pm

imkopaka wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:26 am
I have never seen a Walmart post anything barring guns,
I hope they do not start behind this killing.
Image


philip964
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 12098
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#172

Post by philip964 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:11 pm

imkopaka wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:03 pm
rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:38 am
TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf
How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon? :totap:

Clearly a long gum is not a weapon.


rotor
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#173

Post by rotor » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:53 pm

philip964 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:11 pm
imkopaka wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:03 pm
rotor wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:38 am
TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf
How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon? :totap:

Clearly a long gum is not a weapon.
Clearly? Mission Impossible has that explosive gum. Hard to use on a small iPhone.

User avatar

Maxwell
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 914
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#174

Post by Maxwell » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:54 pm

I had a coworker in CA ask me: Why didn't anyone fight back?
I never let schooling interfere with my education. Mark Twain


ScooterSissy
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:23 pm

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#175

Post by ScooterSissy » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:04 pm

imkopaka wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:26 am
RoadRunnerTR21 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:37 am
Is this Walmart in El Paso posted? I saw earlier where someone said the mall was but what about the Walmart?
I have never seen a Walmart post anything barring guns, however, to my knowledge ALL Walmarts in Texas sell beer and wine, and are therefore required by TABC to post blue signs. Said signs make it illegal to carry a rifle inside (or any other firearm that isn't carried under the authority of LTC). So, it was illegal for him to carry the gun he had into Walmart.
The TABC requirements are for one of two different signs. I believe Walmart falls under "establishments whose alcohol sales are 50% or less of total gross receipts. It warns that unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon is a felony."

Selling beer and wine does not disqualify LTC, unless they also post 30-60 & 30-07, unless the establishment is a 51%, making 51% or more of their sales in alcohol.


Rob72
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:08 am
Location: Gulf Coast

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#176

Post by Rob72 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:15 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:02 pm
[
I believe that the doctor's code of "do no harm" is behind a lot of individual decisions to not carry in crowded places or to not be willing to shoot if evil arrives. Until we can break that mind-set, the possibility of meeting an evil shooter with 3-4 armed responders is merely a wish.
That's 1/2 of the Tac Medic's credo: "Do know harm and do no harm." If you, "do know harm", delivering it with terminal intensity is greatly simplified.

User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#177

Post by oljames3 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:41 pm

Maxwell wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:54 pm
I had a coworker in CA ask me: Why didn't anyone fight back?
Not enough people carrying and/or willing to defend.

Crime Prevention Research Center, 2018, published data on the number of license/permit holders by state. Texas was below the national average.
https://crimeresearch.org/2018/08/new-s ... inorities/

So, being generous, 7% of the adults in El Paso might have an LTC. Of that 7&+%, maybe half would be carrying. Of that 7%, maybe 1% have had any training. LTC does not count. http://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-o ... nt-part-1/

Pick a number of adults you think were in the Walmart and do the math. How many adults would have to be present for 1 LTC holder, with training, to be present? Way too many.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1

User avatar

Liberty
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 8
Posts: 6271
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:49 pm
Location: Galveston
Contact:

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#178

Post by Liberty » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:35 pm

oljames3 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:41 pm
Maxwell wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:54 pm
I had a coworker in CA ask me: Why didn't anyone fight back?
Not enough people carrying and/or willing to defend.

Crime Prevention Research Center, 2018, published data on the number of license/permit holders by state. Texas was below the national average.
https://crimeresearch.org/2018/08/new-s ... inorities/

So, being generous, 7% of the adults in El Paso might have an LTC. Of that 7&+%, maybe half would be carrying. Of that 7%, maybe 1% have had any training. LTC does not count. http://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-o ... nt-part-1/

Pick a number of adults you think were in the Walmart and do the math. How many adults would have to be present for 1 LTC holder, with training, to be present? Way too many.
The figures would be skewed even lower. There was a significant percentage of Mexican Nationals. Walmart at that time of day would have a lot more women ( who are more unlikely to carry.)

This looked to be a huge Walmart. It's possible the shooter just got away before an LTC holder could get to where the shots were coming from.+
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy

User avatar

oljames3
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:21 pm
Location: Elgin, Texas
Contact:

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#179

Post by oljames3 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:56 pm

Pinning down a number is difficult if not impossible. In any case, it is depressingly low. Thus, it is indeed unlikely that a willing and able defender did not have the opportunity to act.

I found this link of one person who left her revolver at home.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/el-pa ... er-pistol/
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1

User avatar

Oldgringo
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 18
Posts: 11126
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Pineywoods of east Texas

Re: El Paso Walmart Shooting

#180

Post by Oldgringo » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:13 pm

Speaking of "whys", why didn't the cameras pick him up and someone sound an alarm before the killings started?

Post Reply

Return to “The Crime Blotter”