Question for txinvestigator

dws1117 · Post by **dws1117** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:44 pm

Or anyone else who can help.

I actually walk up and down the line as they are firing, and offer ways to improve in those who are having issues. The biggest culprit is jerking the trigger, followed by heeling and thumbing

What is "heeling and thumbing"? I've never heard these terms.

BobCat · Post by **BobCat** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:51 am

I'm not him, but heeling is pushing with the heel of your hand so the round goes high, and thumbing is pushing with your thumb, so the round goes right (if you are right handed). If you grasp the pistol firmly and press the trigger straight back without "working" any other muscles in your hand, the pistol stays aligned like you had it, and the shot goes where you were aiming.

There is a picture called "the wheel of misfortune" that purports to show what one is doing wrong based on where the bullet hits the paper. I think you can find it on bullseyepistol.com - might be called "error analysis and correction" there.

Regards,
Andrew

PS I do not claim any special expertise at any of this. I am a very average shot, not anything special - I've just read enough to be able to answer your question.

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:58 am

I'm trying to cure the "Wife Unit" from throwing the rounds out of the gun...

They are hitting low and to the left...

I got her on a hyper-shooting routine, where I am going to get her to go through about 500 rounds, then start to work on those bad habits like blinking, jerking and anticipating the trigger...

We discovered she has the same right handed and left eye dominate condition I have...So I put some chapstick on her right eye protection lens, just enough for her to work the sight picture a little better...She is sighting in much better, yet she still has the jerks and blinks, and other issues I think I have not quite identified as yet...

I love a work in progress...Thats half the fun...

I also think her pistol needs to be sighted in a little better, but I am not sure how to make a significant improvement with minor adjustments to the sights on that pistol...I'm afraid I may break them...She allowed me to shoot just one magazine...And I think it is shooting low and to the left slightly, so it may be a combo deal...

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:06 pm

BobCat wrote:I'm not him, but heeling is pushing with the heel of your hand so the round goes high, and thumbing is pushing with your thumb, so the round goes right (if you are right handed). If you grasp the pistol firmly and press the trigger straight back without "working" any other muscles in your hand, the pistol stays aligned like you had it, and the shot goes where you were aiming.

There is a picture called "the wheel of misfortune" that purports to show what one is doing wrong based on where the bullet hits the paper. I think you can find it on bullseyepistol.com - might be called "error analysis and correction" there.

Regards,
Andrew

Correct. Thanks for saving me all that typing. :)

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:12 pm

stevie_d_64 wrote:I'm trying to cure the "Wife Unit" from throwing the rounds out of the gun...

They are hitting low and to the left...

I got her on a hyper-shooting routine, where I am going to get her to go through about 500 rounds, then start to work on those bad habits like blinking, jerking and anticipating the trigger...

We discovered she has the same right handed and left eye dominate condition I have...So I put some chapstick on her right eye protection lens, just enough for her to work the sight picture a little better...She is sighting in much better, yet she still has the jerks and blinks, and other issues I think I have not quite identified as yet...

I love a work in progress...Thats half the fun...

I also think her pistol needs to be sighted in a little better, but I am not sure how to make a significant improvement with minor adjustments to the sights on that pistol...I'm afraid I may break them...She allowed me to shoot just one magazine...And I think it is shooting low and to the left slightly, so it may be a combo deal...

I would not worry about the blinking. Its sounds as though she is anticipating recoil and "jerking" the trigger. This usually causes 2 things, 1) the person pushes the barrel down when they think the gun will fire so they can "beat" the recoil, 2) the person tries to make the gun fire rather than pressing slowly on the trigger until it does fire.

To correct it she must first know exactly what it is she is doing wrong. Try loading the magazine for her, only don't chamber a round. Make her believe there is a round chambered. Then when she snaps the trigger and the gun dips noticably down when it goes "click" she can actually see and feel what she is doing.

Then use some snap caps and load a magazine with a mix of live rounds and snap caps. Tell her to imagine that the gun will go "click" everytime and to focus on making a smooth trigger press and to keep the barrel steady.

Good luck.

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:23 pm

txinvestigator wrote:
stevie_d_64 wrote:I'm trying to cure the "Wife Unit" from throwing the rounds out of the gun...

They are hitting low and to the left...

I got her on a hyper-shooting routine, where I am going to get her to go through about 500 rounds, then start to work on those bad habits like blinking, jerking and anticipating the trigger...

We discovered she has the same right handed and left eye dominate condition I have...So I put some chapstick on her right eye protection lens, just enough for her to work the sight picture a little better...She is sighting in much better, yet she still has the jerks and blinks, and other issues I think I have not quite identified as yet...

I love a work in progress...Thats half the fun...

I also think her pistol needs to be sighted in a little better, but I am not sure how to make a significant improvement with minor adjustments to the sights on that pistol...I'm afraid I may break them...She allowed me to shoot just one magazine...And I think it is shooting low and to the left slightly, so it may be a combo deal...
I would not worry about the blinking. Its sounds as though she is anticipating recoil and "jerking" the trigger. This usually causes 2 things, 1) the person pushes the barrel down when they think the gun will fire so they can "beat" the recoil, 2) the person tries to make the gun fire rather than pressing slowly on the trigger until it does fire.

To correct it she must first know exactly what it is she is doing wrong. Try loading the magazine for her, only don't chamber a round. Make her believe there is a round chambered. Then when she snaps the trigger and the gun dips noticably down when it goes "click" she can actually see and feel what she is doing.

Then use some snap caps and load a magazine with a mix of live rounds and snap caps. Tell her to imagine that the gun will go "click" everytime and to focus on making a smooth trigger press and to keep the barrel steady.

Good luck.

I like that idea...

I know I need to get a couple of snap caps and load them up randomly in the mags for her...

I'm not going to tell her about them but when she comes across one, I do know the first question out of her mouth will be...

"Why did you do that!"

Instead of me being able to ask her...

"Ok, you see what your hands just did?"

I just hope she doesn't learn how to clear the pistol too quick...I'm not as fast as I used to be...

Just kidding...We are very safety oriented, but brazenly crase in our prose...

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:30 pm

Some good comments above.

Also, ya might have her really focus on follow-through. Have her try to hold the sight picture while the gun recoils. It's virtually impossible to do with most guns, but it should help overcome the jerking associated with conscious or subconscious anticipation.

Post by **Crossfire** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:53 pm

I think everyone here has said the same thing - obviously, she has a problem with anticipating the recoil and flinching. You didn't say what caliber or kind of firearm she is shooting, but I can offer a few suggestions from the female point of view.

1. Many women have a problem with the flying brass, and they flinch to keep from being smacked in the forehead. You mentioned that she is cross-dominant, and that just adds to the problem. Let her try a revolver for awhile and see if that helps.

2. If you want to stay with a semi-auto, try something a bit heavier that doesn't kick as much. I love my Glock, but it isn't for everybody.

3. Go with a smaller caliber for awhile. I always start new shooters on a .22, and then let them move up as they gain confidence. If you try to start her on a .45, she may never enjoy shooting.

Good luck, and safe shooting!

Post by **carlson1** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:02 pm

llwatson wrote:If you try to start her on a .45, she may never enjoy shooting.

This is what I did to my wife more than 21 years ago when she was a girlfriend. I had her shoot my Commander at night. Bad ideal. It took me 18 years to get her to shoot again. Now she has her CHL and carries a Glock 26, but I almost ruined her for life.

ElGato · Post by **ElGato** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:43 am

I agree with llwatson about the 22's, I always start a new shooter with a 22 revolver and semi auto and let them shoot untill they are really loose and having fun, then move them to the 38 and 9mm and so on.

Also dry fire, dry fire, and dry fire some more.

Don't worry about the dominant eye, she should shoot with both eye's open and let the dominant eye take over, with a hand gun it doesn't matter which eye is dominant, it only means she will have tilt her head a little more to the right for her line of sight.

and make it fun!

Tomcat

ElGato · Post by **ElGato** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:27 am

46 years ago when I was teaching my wife (Gwenn) to shoot, she had shot the 22's several times and was really knocking the tin cans around, cans were our favorite targets, she asked to shoot my 45 and I told her no, the more I told her no the more she wanted to shoot it, when I gave in and let her, she fired the first shot, looked over her shoulder at me said " from now on when you leave me at home by myself, this is the gun you leave with me."

Tomcat

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:45 am

You guys who teach your own wives to shoot are brave. ;)

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:57 am

llwatson wrote:I think everyone here has said the same thing - obviously, she has a problem with anticipating the recoil and flinching. You didn't say what caliber or kind of firearm she is shooting, but I can offer a few suggestions from the female point of view.

1. Many women have a problem with the flying brass, and they flinch to keep from being smacked in the forehead. You mentioned that she is cross-dominant, and that just adds to the problem. Let her try a revolver for awhile and see if that helps.

2. If you want to stay with a semi-auto, try something a bit heavier that doesn't kick as much. I love my Glock, but it isn't for everybody.

3. Go with a smaller caliber for awhile. I always start new shooters on a .22, and then let them move up as they gain confidence. If you try to start her on a .45, she may never enjoy shooting.

Good luck, and safe shooting!

She bought her first and only handgun all by herself a few months ago...

It was a 9mm Taurus PT 24/7...

She has shot my .40's, and does not like how they feel when she shoots them...That doesn't mean she won't ever in the future, it just a personal thing I suppose...

She does like shooting .45's, Charles Cotton's "Thunder Ranch" .45 is one that she has shot...She really liked that...

I have a .45, I borrowed

, from my Dad...And have every intention of returning someday...She shot that this last weekend, and liked how that felt...Its an old Michigan Armaments (Arms) "Survivalist" .45...And it has had a wonderful trigger job, and some work done to the slide to tighten up the "cycle" on that pistol...

I may never carry that .45 in public, but may have it stashed someplace handy for either of us to access at home, or while traveling incase the need arises...

I feel the .40 has a little more bark than other "normal carry" calibers, that some people just either have to get used to, or shoot only when you have to...

I just happened to get used to the .40...And truthfully, I feel comfortable with any caliber or load...

But on a side note...I always thought that my wife would develop an afinity to shoot a standard .38 revolver...And I think that may be a common assumption some guys have...And I now believe that to be a poor assumption on my part...I even tried to steer her in that direction, based on a lot of poor thinking on my part...

I plan on keeping her around for another 50+ years or so...And if at that time we are shooting phased-plasma rifles in the 40 watt range...I still feel we'll have a couple of tried and true .45's handy when those things run outta juice...

BobCat · Post by **BobCat** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:21 pm

I agree about the .22 as well. The .22 is my teacher - when my groups go to[expletive] and my focus fails, the .22 comes out. Or when I just want to have fun - which is most range sessions.

However, since this discussion has turned toward what guns new shooters or ladies might like, I have to re-tell a story.

A friend called me a few months ago to talk about handguns for his wife and grown daughter. His wife had been attacked at work by a guy with a knife, and was recovering. He shoots a number of different rifles but his only handgun is a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine. Mom and daughter are conversant with .22 rifles, no pistols.

I met them at the range with a 3" S&W Model 13 and a 4" Ruger Security 6, both in .357 - but the loads I brought were very light .38 Special (125g lead cone nose / 3.5g Unique); a BHP with WWB 9mm, and a Springfield 1911 with light target loads (200g lswc / 5.1g Unique).

Started with the light .38s, single and then double action. Tried the Browning, and then (against my better judgement) the 1911. All shooting was done at the shortest (3 yard) line, at a 3" black bullseye Xeroxed onto standard 8-1/2x11 paper.

Well, I sure learned a a lesson! Both ladies liked the 1911 best, and shot it best. They did not shoot any factory loads, but factory .45 ACP is not that much harder to hold onto than my light loads - just louder and sharper.

Mom was shooting strong hand only since her left arm was still all bandaged. She braced her hip against the bench/table at the firing line, and had no trouble with the 1911, with one hand. She was shooting 5-shot strings with four in the black and one just outside it but close; not one string, but several like that.

So I learned to *never* assume what anyone - man or woman - "ought" to shoot. From now on I will refrain from making recommendations, just let them try whatever I can bring to the range, and make their own choices.

Regards,
Andrew

Kalrog · Post by **Kalrog** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:18 am

BobCat wrote:From now on I will refrain from making recommendations, just let them try whatever I can bring to the range, and make their own choices.

That is always my recomendation as well. I may give suggestions based on other factors (revolver vs. pistol, larger vs. smaller gun, capacity, reliability, ...) but the end is that it is their handgun and it needs to fit in their hand and work for them. There isn't a single right answer for guys, so why would there be a single right answer for women either?

Although I think a .30 Carbine handgun is probably the wrong answer for a CCW piece for most anybody...