To Chamber or not to Chamber?

[Liko81]

The thumb safety on a 1911 is NOT a substitute for safe gun handling.

I agree totally, and the UD I saw was a violation of rule 4. Also, the 1911s I have where UD was imminent if it didn't happen were Series 1s; both granddads, who have *almost* ADed were in WWII and have their service 1911s, with no trigger block and a weak interial firing pin, and the guy at the range who *did* AD had a WWII-era Colt Series 1. In all three cases the trigger could be pulled with no pressure on the grip safety, or only the pressure of the grip block's weight. All 3 were in fireable condition and therefore very valuable as-is, meaning replacing a worn grip spring would have decreased the value and wasn't done. More recent 1911s may assuade my misgivings but I have not yet shot one.

I did not, nor will you ever hear me advocate Condition 2 on a 1911, for the reasons that I and txinvestogator have both mentioned. I advocate Condition *3* which is safe even if you pull the damn trigger, but racking the slide brings it immediately to Condition 0. I advocate the same for HD shotguns; pulling the trigger will not fire the weapon even with the safety off, but rack the slide and you're ready for business.

Why is this a big deal? If I said I didn't like 1911s because I saw four of them fail explosively on the firing line, the fact that Browning had designed the gun not to blow up wouldn't persuade me to buy one. The fact that the failed guns were 50 years old and worn out does not mitigate my desire NOT to have a gun I can't always trust at all times to fire when I want and NOT fire at other times. What I carry is personal preference and if I prefer TDAs over SAs, it's my choice not to buy/carry an SA, and it's also my preference, if I were to carry an SA, to carry the way I want. I certainly am not trying to dissuade anyone else from carrying at all or carrying C&L; I am merely expressing my opinion on the matter, which, I believe, is what was originally solicited.

[seeker_two]

I have to respectfully disagree.....Condition Two IS a safe method for carrying and using a 1911 if you've trained with it . JMB originally designed his full-sized service pistols to be carried Condition Two. In fact, he didn't even design a safety for them until the 1911. And the hammer spur on the original 1911 design is made for cocking the hammer while on horseback like a SAA. Condition One was used when the cavalryman has stopped firing and needs to secure his pistol while on horseback (decocking a pistol on horseback never goes well for rider or horse... ) The safeties keep the pistol safe until the cavalryman can dismount and then decock. Condition One carry only came into vogue due to Col. Jeff Cooper.

Just like carrying in Condition One, Condition Two carry requires training and practice. But it is a viable carry method.

OK, feel free to flame away.....

[Liko81]

OK, feel free to flame away.....

You make some good points... But when was the last time you had to fire from horseback?

My reasoning against Condition 2 is that, while it is better than Condition 1 at preventing a negligent pull of the trigger fron discharging, it is even more prone to accidental discharge than Condition 1. With the hammer cocked as in 1, the top-back of the grip protects the hammer from virtually all contact with the ground. Condition 2 does not have that protection, and the hammer can transfer energy to the firing pin if dropped upon it, with a loaded cartridge on the business end of the pin. In addition, to keep your right-hand grip on the weapon the gun must be cocked two-handed, and cocking the gun one-handed loosens your grip and can be slow making it, in most practical terms, equal to Condition 3 in terms of the speed of readying the gun, but Condition 3 largely prevents all negligent AND accidental discharges while being quick to ready two-handed.

This is all academic to me; I've already said I prefer TDAs, where Condition 2 is a fireable state that requires a conscious (10-20lbs) pull of the trigger. Condition 1 is actually not possible with my main carry weapon (Ruger decocking safety; it must be cocked OR locked, can't be both). Condition 2+safety is as safe as a loaded chambered weapon is possible to be, and yet operation is exactly the same as Condition 1 on a SA.

[txinvestigator]

Condition 3 for a carry gun is useless, IMO and the rest of the "ready to fight" world. Most deadly encounters are over quickly, and an uncocked gun will never see action. It is also easy to be injured to a point where you would have only one hand to use the gun, or you only have one hand available such as in a struggle for control of a BGs weapon at the same time you are trying to get yours into action. Can I work the slide on my handgun one-handed, yes, but it is S----L----O------W, and why would I intentionally start with a handicap?

If condidtion 3 is better for a 1911, it is better for ALL handguns, especially those Glocks, with NO manual safeties.

If condidtion 3 were truly a viable carry option, schools like Gunsight, Blackwater, TFTT, Thunder Ranch, LFI and the like would be teaching it. Cops would be using it, and we would not be having internet arguments about it. ;)

[Mike1951]

If someone isn't willing to carry a 1911 in condition 1, I recommend they don't carry a 1911.

However, I have a video around somewhere about "Israeli carry" that is an eye opener.

They train to carry 1911's in condition 3, racking the slide at arm level as part of the presentation.

I remain amazed at how fast the gun was brought to ready.

[WildBill]

If someone isn't willing to carry a 1911 in condition 1, I recommend they don't carry a 1911.

Always wanted to use this smiley

[WildBill]

Interesting, I found this in Kimber's Instruction Manual for the Compact, ProCarry and UltraCarry:

Safe Carrying Condition: Never carry this pistol cocked, loaded and ready to fire as this practice could easily result in an unintentional discharge. Do not carry a loaded gun with a live round in the chamber while walking, running or crossing any obstacle, where there is any possibility of slipping or falling as this could lead to a possible unintentional discharge.

[txinvestigator]

Interesting, I found this in Kimber's Instruction Manual for the Compact, ProCarry and UltraCarry:

Safe Carrying Condition: Never carry this pistol cocked, loaded and ready to fire as this practice could easily result in an unintentional discharge. Do not carry a loaded gun with a live round in the chamber while walking, running or crossing any obstacle, where there is any possibility of slipping or falling as this could lead to a possible unintentional discharge.

That's legalese; not tactically sound. ;)

But for fun, lets dissect it;

Never carry this pistol cocked, loaded and ready to fire as this practice could easily result in an unintentional discharge.

I agree, always engage the safety, and place in a holster.

Do not carry a loaded gun with a live round in the chamber while walking, running or crossing any obstacle, where there is any possibility of slipping or falling as this could lead to a possible unintentional discharge

Agreed, holster the weapon first.

[maximus2161]

A handgun carried wiwthout a round chambered is a club, and not a very good one, IMO. ;)

Well said.

[Lindy]

The problem with the "Israeli Carry" method is that employing the pistol in a timely manner requires both hands, and under attack one may not have them both free.

My recommendation is that those uncomfortable carrying a 1911 in Condition One carry something else.

My recommendation is that those uncomfortable carrying any pistol with a round in the chamber don't carry, so that you will not be providing a pistol to a violent criminal who has hammered you to the ground or otherwise rendered you helpless. There are already enough armed violent criminals without providing them easy pickings to get more guns.

[Kalrog]

My recommendation is that those uncomfortable carrying a 1911 in Condition One carry something else.

In general, I agree with that. The only exception is the ParaOrd LDA series. That allows you to safely and intentionally carry in condition 2. Hammer down on a live round and still use all of the safeties. Still a 1 handed to go bang operation.

[Bill]

Take a FOF class, make that at night or low light. Even with training tunnel vision makes you do stupid stuff. Like kill the good guys, run out of ammo and you can not get a mag in fast enough before your hammered. Most encounters will be reactionary, we often dream about being the hero were we have sneaked up on the BG and won the West.
Next time do FOF with just face protection and a tee shirt, It hurts like heck and tunnel vision is even more a problem. You will probably get shot before you draw and while you are tearing up and can not see, manipulation of your 1911 just became that much harder.
Just a thought, bill

[dac1842]

I read the first post and didn't bother to read the replies. If you are not going to carry chambered then don't carry. It is the same. There is no way on God';s green earth if a situation develops to where you must react you can do so in enough time to chamber first. Most gun fights are over in less than 10 seconds, you will be at a 3-5 second disadvantage depending on quick you are and rather or not you panic, freeze or run. Don't laugh or say not you. Unless you have been in the fire fight, you don't know.
My advice, which might just save your life, is chamber the weapon. If you don't then at least name me as beneficiary.

[SlowDave]

Just so you know it's not unanimous, I carry w/o one in the chamber. I carry "a club" and plan to give it to my attacker so HE will then have a club and I can whip his butt with my keychain while he tries to beat me to death with my useless firearm. [/sarcasm]

I've had this discussion before, and I hate the overstatement that invariably occurs. I will agree that carrying one in the chamber gives quicker response time and is a major advantage if you get involved and don't have both hands available. However, I tried to go draw and shoot both ways (starting with one in the chamber, then without one in the chamber) and with manual timing stuff, I could not measure the difference. It was less than 0.1 sec.

I understand the "carry chambered" crowd's position, just don't feel it's best for me, so far. And there is some additional risk in that method of carry, and not admitting it doesn't change that. I agree that if you follow the 4 rules, and draw and keep your finger off the trigger throughout, and don't make mistakes, there is no chance for the loaded (chamber included) gun to go off. But if you do everything right, no one would ever get shot on accident, so people make mistakes. Not having one in the chamber makes a whole nother level of effort that has to be accomplished before the gun will fire, either accidentally or on purpose. I'm taking that path. One day it might cost me my life, or save it. My choice. Feel free to make your own. [Flame suit on.]

p.s. An gun with a full magazine and but nothing in the chamber is nothing more than a poor club. Really? Really? Wow.

p.p.s. What's a FOF class? Please spell out any acronyms less often used than "USA". Thanks.

[fm2]

I've had this discussion before, and I hate the overstatement that invariably occurs. I will agree that carrying one in the chamber gives quicker response time and is a major advantage if you get involved and don't have both hands available. However, I tried to go draw and shoot both ways (starting with one in the chamber, then without one in the chamber) and with manual timing stuff, I could not measure the difference. It was less than 0.1 sec..

What carry method were you using? Speed, while important, is only one part of the drawstroke. You might want/need to use your off hand for something other than grabbing your slide.

I understand the "carry chambered" crowd's position, just don't feel it's best for me, so far. And there is some additional risk in that method of carry, and not admitting it doesn't change that. I agree that if you follow the 4 rules, and draw and keep your finger off the trigger throughout, and don't make mistakes, there is no chance for the loaded (chamber included) gun to go off. But if you do everything right, no one would ever get shot on accident, so people make mistakes. Not having one in the chamber makes a whole nother level of effort that has to be accomplished before the gun will fire, either accidentally or on purpose. I'm taking that path. One day it might cost me my life, or save it. My choice. Feel free to make your own. [Flame suit on.]

I feel like this is a training issue and or a gear issue. Usually after people have taken a defensive pistol class, they build up the confidence and skill to be comfortable with carrying chambered firearm. The issue in the self defense, SD, problem as you noted, is time. Time to get your hand on the pistol, time to get the pistol up and ready to use. That becomes readily apparent in an interaction with a role player in real time drill or scenario. And then you don't have the unknown of WHEN something might happen that may occur in the real world.

An gun with a full magazine and but nothing in the chamber is nothing more than a poor club. Really? Really? Wow.

The reason that people say this is that if you strike someone with the handgun it can damage the handgun. Sometimes a tap rack will get it up and running, but sometimes they are damaged to the extent that it will need to go to a gunsmith to get it operational again. I've hear of revolvers getting ejector rods bent or cylinders bound up after striking a hard surface.

p.p.s. What's a FOF class? Please spell out any acronyms less often used than "USA". Thanks.

FOF = Force on force...... Usually scenarios or drills where you practice what you've learned against a role playing bad guy(s) aka: bg. Sometimes that means only training gun on training gun, somtimes it involves empty hands, training knives, and training guns.