Sage legal advice from law professor and LEO?

[HankB]

In a recent thread ("Hurricane Dolly Looter Shot") there was a link to a story about the fatal shooting of a would-be looter . . . the link is:

http://www.themonitor.com/news/immigran ... eriff.html

Part of the legal problems the store owner has can be summed up by the words of the LEO spokesman:

Lopez, the storeowner, will be charged with failure to report a felony because she was not candid with police about the shooting . . .

Without getting into the merits of the above case (lots of bad guys and bad judgement involved) note that the store owner's probems include saying the wrong things to police.

In this vein, here are a couple of videos sure to infuriate certain LEOs, but the legal advice they contain would appear to be sound. The first clip is that of a law professor, the second - part of the same presentation - comes from an experienced police officer.

Both are rather lengthy, so broadband is recommended.

IANAL, so I would be interested in hearing from any LEOs or attorneys on this board whether the advice offered is valid or so much baloney.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4885833865

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &ei=&hl=en

[srothstein]

HankB,

My best professional advice, as an officer, is to never talk to the police without a good lawyer. Well, I guess I should say to not answer questions since talking about the weather or the latest Rangers game can't hurt too much .

Seriously, if the police are questioning you about something you did, you are in trouble. You cannot tell what will help you or hurt you. A good lawyer (emphasis on good) can get almost as much information from the police as they will want to get from you. If you truly have done something, a lawyer can help ensure the police prove it without your help, as is your right (innocent until proven guilty). If you are innocent, a good lawyer can make sure the police figure that out much more quickly than you can on your own. And for those gray areas, such as after a shooting that is not quite as clear cut as we would like, they are invaluable.

And, to be fair, I also always give a caveat to anyone. If you cooperate with the police, talking with them or letting them search, you are much more likely to be let go with a warning, even if they do find something minor. Cops are humans and they will be easier to get along with you cooperate. When you do not cooperate, you will get the cop mad and he will take whatever action he can. In the case of a traffic stop, he will write the ticket instead of giving a warning. In a criminal case, he will write it for the most serious offense possible and will try to get the DA to take a marginal case. When you do not cooperate, be prepared for the consequences. As long as cops are humans, and we give them any discretion at all, you need to remember that you might beat the rap but not the ride.

[WildBill]

And, to be fair, I also always give a caveat to anyone. If you cooperate with the police, talking with them or letting them search, you are much more likely to be let go with a warning, even if they do find something minor. Cops are humans and they will be easier to get along with you cooperate. When you do not cooperate, you will get the cop mad and he will take whatever action he can. In the case of a traffic stop, he will write the ticket instead of giving a warning. In a criminal case, he will write it for the most serious offense possible and will try to get the DA to take a marginal case. When you do not cooperate, be prepared for the consequences. As long as cops are humans, and we give them any discretion at all, you need to remember that you might beat the rap but not the ride.

Steve, I am a little confused. Your first two paragraphs say not to talk to the police without a lawyer, but the last paragraphs seems to say it's okay to talk to them so you don't make them mad.

Seriously, if the police are questioning you about something you did, you are in trouble.

You can be in just as much trouble if they are questioning you about something you didn't do.


I agree that you should cooperate by obeying lawful orders, but not answer questions or consent to a search. I don't think that you should talk about the weather or the Rangers. The LEO isn't going to care about small talk with a suspect, but is only trying to make you feel comfortable so that you give out more information.

I agree that in the case of a traffic stop he/she is more likely to write the ticket instead of a warning, but I would rather have a traffic infraction than get arrested for a more serious charge as a result of talking too much or consenting to a search.

In the case of a criminal charge the DA will try to charge you with the most serious offense that he can. IMO, just because you were cooperative by giving them the evidence you won't "beat the ride." If you give your consent for a search, it is much more difficult to get the evidence supressed.

[amber]

I agree that you should cooperate by obeying lawful orders, but not answer questions or consent to a search. I don't think that you should talk about the weather or the Rangers.

I think he meant talking with an officer you meet at a Starbucks or little league game, not when you're a suspect.

[bryang]

I hope we can get some more input concerning this topic. I have really been struggling with this problem ever since I started the process of getting my CHL. I have heard so many contradictions about talking to LEO, I have asked people and have read all of the post here concerning contacts with LEO and searched the net, but I am still uncertain what I should do. I was raised in a different era and was told as a child that the LEO,s are your friend. If you need help, they will help you and that they are on your side..... and now we are told that every word you say to a LEO, "will", be used against you! They are not your friend and are trying to trick you into saying something stupid so they can take you to jail, and get you convicted!

I don't know if I am even making any sense, or what it is I am asking, really. I would like to hear some more comments from some of the LEO's here, I know that there are a lot of them on this forum. There are also lot of folks on the forum that understand the law very well and I would appreciate your wisdom, also.

Thanks, everyone, I appreciate you.
geo

[Mike1951]

When I first clicked on the links and saw the length, I almost closed the window. But I was hooked enough to listen to both in their entirety. Left me with no doubt that that is how it is in Virginia.

It would be very interesting to be able to see similar presentations by a UT professor and a Texas LEO.

[WildBill]

I don't know if I am even making any sense, or what it is I am asking, really. I would like to hear some more comments from some of the LEO's here, I know that there are a lot of them on this forum. There are also lot of folks on the forum that understand the law very well and I would appreciate your wisdom, also. Thanks, everyone, I appreciate you. geo

Bryang - You are making plenty of sense, but there isn't going to be one definative answer on this subject. The opinions of attorneys may differ from LEOs because they experience the criminal justice system from different perspectives. Criminal defense attorneys make their living defending people and they have seen how difficult it is to defend someone who talked too much. You may get different advice from a prosecuting attorney versus a defense attorney.

People who have family members or friends who are LEOs may view them in a more positive light. Some people who have had bad experiences with LEOs or have friends or relatives that have had bad experiences will probably have a different opinion than those with positive experiences or no experience. Due to the criminal background check, probably most CHLers haven't had much experience with LEOs other than traffic stops.

In the end you have to make your own decision about what you will do.

[bryang]

Thanks, WillBill, I appreciate your wisdom!

[srothstein]

Steve, I am a little confused. Your first two paragraphs say not to talk to the police without a lawyer, but the last paragraphs seems to say it's okay to talk to them so you don't make them mad.

Sorry to confuse you on this. What I meant is that it is not good to talk to the officers when you are a suspect. You should never consent to a search or questioning without a lawyer present.

But, I also wanted to present the real life side. In real life, when you cooperate with a cop and all he has is something minor, it could get you off with a warning instead of a ticket or arrest. If you do not cooperate, the cop will charge you with what he can. Part of the logic is his resentment of your lack of cooperation and part of his logic is he believes there is more he could not prove so nail you for what he can.

In other words, every decision has consequences, both good and bad. You need to know all of the consequences to make your personal decision. I would also rather have a ticket than an arrest that I talked my own way into. I might or might not be able to beat the arrest, but I can almost always afford the ticket.

I am constantly surprised by the number of criminals cops find who consent to searches when they know the evidence is there. They usually say something along the lines of "I thought he would not really search if I consented." Of course he will, that is why he asked.

Seriously, if the police are questioning you about something you did, you are in trouble.

You can be in just as much trouble if they are questioning you about something you didn't do.

Yes, you certainly can be in as much trouble for something you did not do, if you talk and give them anything they did not have. It can be twisted sometimes.



And for anyone who is considering this still, I want to be fair and give them as much information as I can. There are good cops and bad cops out there. Some will deliberately try to twist anything you say (think of the interview in "My Cousin Vinnie"). Some are honestly trying to solve crimes where people get hurt. Some are honestly just trying to do their job as they see it, whether you or I agree or disagree with what they are doing.

Anything you say might be able to be used against you in court. Only the DA will know for sure what can or cannot be used, in combination with other evidence. The cop will usually report everything you say or do and let someone else decide what is really useful.

And the more I think about it, the more I think the movie My Cousin Vinnie is a great example of why you need a lawyer anytime you are stopped or questioned by a cop. The whole scenario in the movie, of the coincidences and the mistaken testimony and the way the admissions were interpreted by the sheriff is really very plausible.

[WildBill]

And the more I think about it, the more I think the movie My Cousin Vinnie is a great example of why you need a lawyer anytime you are stopped or questioned by a cop. The whole scenario in the movie, of the coincidences and the mistaken testimony and the way the admissions were interpreted by the sheriff is really very plausible.

Especially if you are a yute!

[bryang]

Thanks, srothstein, for your added comments. That helped me to see things in a different light.
I think the answer is...stay out of trouble!!
Then you want have to worry about what to say or not to say.

Thanks, everyone
geo

[WildBill]

But, I also wanted to present the real life side. In real life, when you cooperate with a cop and all he has is something minor, it could get you off with a warning instead of a ticket or arrest. If you do not cooperate, the cop will charge you with what he can. Part of the logic is his resentment of your lack of cooperation and part of his logic is he believes there is more he could not prove so nail you for what he can.

I was watching COPS the other night when the Las Vegas PD pulled over a young man. The officer convinced him that things would be easier on him if he were honest and cooperated, so he consented to a search. The officer found some drugs in his trunk and arrested him. The guy was convinced that he was going to be let go because he cooperated with the officer. He was very surprised and angry when he was arrested.

[KC5AV]

But, I also wanted to present the real life side. In real life, when you cooperate with a cop and all he has is something minor, it could get you off with a warning instead of a ticket or arrest. If you do not cooperate, the cop will charge you with what he can. Part of the logic is his resentment of your lack of cooperation and part of his logic is he believes there is more he could not prove so nail you for what he can.

I was watching COPS the other night when the Las Vegas PD pulled over a young man. The officer convinced him that things would be easier on him if he were honest and cooperated, so he consented to a search. The officer found some drugs in his trunk and arrested him. The guy was convinced that he was going to be let go because he cooperated with the officer. He was very surprised and angry when he was arrested.

I have a brother in prison right now because the police told him they'd help him every way they could if he'd just sign a confession. My brother has never been the brightest bulb in the box. To this day, I don't know if he's guilty or not, but he should have asked for a lawyer.

[Elvis]

LEO here, not an attorney, if I may give you some food for thought. Perhaps one day you find yourself in a position to have to defend yourself with a firearm and you survive. The Police arrive and survey the scene and find you with a smoking gun in your hand and another person down with a gun shot. Newsflash, you have committed a crime in the State of Texas (Agg. Assault or Murder). If the first words out of your mouth are “I want my attorney” then you will be going to jail and booked. I am sure your attorney will be pleased that you did not “incriminate” yourself and he can then formulate a defense that fits the evidence, as long as your checks clear. Juries tend to take a dim view of defendants that “Lawyer Up” as they appear guilty and uncooperative as if they were hiding something.
Try this instead. If you were in a self defense shooting and LEO arrives and asks you what happened, tell them in general terms what the sequence of events were. Give them something to start the investigation toward a Justified shoot. Do not immediately give details like how many shots were fired by you or what words were exchanged. Tell the Police that you do not want to give a formal statement until you have a chance to contact your attorney and by all means contact you attorney as soon as possible. The Police will be able to take your statement in a day or two after you have calmed down and you will remember the events better. At least give us a chance to send you home to your family if things are looking good for you. The standard “I was in fear of my safety and had to shoot to defend myself” or “I was attacked and shot in self defense” will go in the initial report along with the Officers observations of your behavior and mindset.
Just an opinion from someone that has been to more than a few scenes…

[bdickens]

Well, the fact that you called the police in the first place surely will give you some credence.