Unhappy LEO CHL Experience

[JasonH]

Yesterday I took advantage of the weather to take my boat out for a day of fishing. I was cruising through the Galveston ship channel when I was stopped by Texas Parks & Wildlife. I was boarded and went through the routine. Fire extinguisher, check. Life vests, check. No illegal fish, check. And so on.

When they were finished looking my boat over I was asked for my driver's license. I handed the officer my driver's license along with my concealed handgun license and as soon as he saw it he immediately became belligerent. He asked if I had a handgun and I told him yes and made him aware of its location (which was inside a tackle bag). I then received a lecture on how "this is the kind of thing that could cause you to lose your concealed handgun license" and was told I should have made him aware of it from the very beginning.

I think this is probably good advice and I didn't argue with him but I was told explicitly by my CHL instructor that I was to produce my CHL for a LEO once I was asked for identification. I suppose even if that is the case legally it's probably still a good idea to make an officer aware before being asked for identification but I'm just wondering if anybody has the law to cite or has had experience with this.

In any case he let me go on my merry way but to say the guy was irritated by the fact that I had a gun is an understatement.

[bdickens]

What a donkey's gleuteous maximus! I'd file a complaint against that jerk.

[CHLSteve]

Sounds to me like he was irritated at himself that he didn't ask for the ID up front like he should have. I will not go blurting it out to LEO that I have a gun, because that just seems suspicious to me. If and when I am asked, I will produce my CHL, just as you did. You can't "lose your license" for that.

[lawrnk]

Agreed, file a complaint against him. He appears to be one of those LEO's that are not big fans of the CHL.

[PUCKER]

Sounds like you might want to let these folks know....

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/warden/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(this is a PDF, has a map along with various contacts)
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publication ... map_se.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[biggyin]

I was told explicitly by my CHL instructor that I was to produce my CHL for a LEO once I was asked for identification.

If he wanted to know you had a concealed weapon earlier he should have asked for your driving license earlier. I would think in that situation he would want to confirm who he was dealing with straight away, or is that just me?

[flintknapper]

IMO, it would serve no purpose to file a "complaint", BUT...this is an excellent opportunity to write to his superior and ask him/her to make certain that all of their Wardens know the law. You are absolutely correct concerning when you MUST produce your CHL (only when asked for I.D)

It wouldn't hurt to mention the Warden's obvious change in demeanor (maybe someone will straighten him out on that).

Please... do take the time to follow up on this, it will help us all greatly.


Flint.

[Charles L. Cotton]

IMO, it would serve no purpose to file a "complaint", BUT...this is an excellent opportunity to write to his superior and ask him/her to make certain that all of their Wardens know the law. You are absolutely correct concerning when you MUST produce your CHL (only when asked for I.D)

It wouldn't hurt to mention the Warden's obvious change in demeanor (maybe someone will straighten him out on that).

Please... do take the time to follow up on this, it will help us all greatly.


Flint.

I don't think a complaint would change anything, but a letter like Flint suggests could be very well received and thus more effective. You could preface your letter with a comment something like, "I am not lodging a formal complaint and don't want to cause the warden a problem, but I think it is important to ensure your people are aware of a concealed handgun licensee's legal responsibilities." If the superior thinks you're trying to help prevent future problems, as opposed to wanting your pound of flesh, then he may act on your letter rather than ignore it thinking you're just another disgruntled citizen.

It's entirely possible the warden, like many LEOs, believe that a CHL is required to let the officer know they are armed as soon as any LEO/citizen contact is initiated. I have a number of LEO friends that believed that until I gave them the statute to look up. As for the warden's comment that you should let them know without being asked for ID, I respectfully disagree. This has been discussed in other threads, but there are many scenarios in which some LEOs who would react negatively if a CHL gratuitously made a statement "I have a gun." Though not required, I don't see that offering your ID and CHL even when not asked could be misinterpreted as could an uninvited statement that "I have a gun." Before someone gets stirred up, I'm not saying this should be anyone's standard operating procedure, I'm just saying that if I were in a situation and I wanted to let the LEO know I had a gun before he asks me for ID, that's how I would go about it.

Chas.
BTW, here is the statute:

§ 411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY.

• (a) If a
  license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license
  holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that
  the license holder display identification, the license holder shall
  display both the license holder's driver's license or
  identification certificate issued by the department and the license
  holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display
  the license and identification as required by this subsection is
  subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by
  Section 411.187.
  (b) A person commits an offense if the person fails or
  refuses to display the license and identification as required by
  Subsection (a) after previously having had the person's license
  suspended for a violation of that subsection. An offense under this
  subsection is a Class B misdemeanor.

Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, § 10.01(a), eff. Sept. 1,
1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 9.17(a), eff.
Sept. 1, 1999.
(Emphasis added)

[WarHawk-AVG]

Did he ask for your fishing license?

[JasonH]

Did he ask for your fishing license?

Oddly enough he didn't even though we had six rods in the boat. He went through the long list of standard inspections but skipped that one for some reason. Maybe because I didn't keep any fish?

Although it does raise an interesting question - would you produce the CHL when asked for a fishing license? I suppose, seeing how it's a misdemeanor if you fail to produce it when asked for identification, you're better off doing it to be on the safe side since I'd consider a license to be "identification."

Also, thanks Chas for the suggestion. I'm going to do exactly that. I don't want to make a fuss but it certainly couldn't hurt if TP&W wardens were familiar with the law regarding this issue.

[rm9792]

I am on the other side here, I think you do need to make a fuss. LEO are not above the law and need to know their job. Laying back and taking stuff like this is why we are in the boat we are in and steadily losing our rights. File a formal complaint. This guy might have a dozen "letters" but no complaints so he wont change. Whether he likes CHL or not he is required to follow and enforce the law, not change it to suit his needs. I realize I bend a lot of rules but I am not a sworn peace officer.

[CHLSteve]

would you produce the CHL when asked for a fishing license? I suppose, seeing how it's a misdemeanor if you fail to produce it when asked for identification, you're better off doing it to be on the safe side since I'd consider a license to be "identification."

No, I would not give me CHL to a game warden who asks (only) for my fishing license. CHL is given out along with my drivers license, when asked.

[rm9792]

Confusing there, as the Warden asked for "Identification" and not a fishing license. If he just asks for a fishing license, thats what i would show him. If he specifically asks for identification then he gets chl and dl as the law states.

"a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license
holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that
the license holder display identification, the license holder shall
display both the license holder's driver's license or
identification certificate issued by the department and the license
holder's handgun license."

[Shiner Bock]

You were smart not to argue the law with him but now that it's over I would write the informational letter to his superiors. Maybe they just need to be aware that some refresher training on this matter may be in order. It's not good to have a LEO who doesn't know the law but thinks he does.

[Liberty]

If he the game warden became truly belligerant he deserves an official complaint. We should expect nothing less than professionalism from LEO or any other service personnel. Being belligerent has little to do with being right or wrong about showing a CHL.

If we are out on a boat do we automatically give up our right to unreasonable search and seizure? Do we have a right to deny them the right to board?