Amber Alert question

[particle]

Sitting in endless traffic this morning on the Dallas North Tollway, I noticed one of the overhead electronic billboards displaying an Amber Alert message. Of course, instantly I started looking around at the vehicles next to me for possible vehicle matches, and then I began to daydream about what I might do if I stumbled across a suspect vehicle matching the license plate and vehicle description. Do I swerve in front of them and cut them off, then jump out with my gun drawn? Do I tail them and call the police?

So, my question to you - what would be a legal, appropriate course of action if you stumbled across an Amber Alert suspect? It's my understanding that an Amber Alert is civilian-operated program intended to notify the public of a missing child, but it is not a matter for Law Enforcement because the child hasn't been missing for X amount of hours.

Your thoughts? What would you do?

[seamusTX]

Children who are the subjects of Amber Alerts are official missing people. The police have already confirmed that they were abducted, not just lost or staying too long at a friend's house: http://www.amberalert.gov/faqs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you see a vehicle that is mentioned in an Amber Alert, you can do two things: Call 911, and keep the vehicle in sight without making the driver suspicious.

A kidnapper can be very desperate. Many are parents and/or former spouses or "boyfriends" who have lost it. The kidnapper might kill you, the kidnap victim, or himself. (The fact that you are armed guarantees nothing.)

It's also possible that the Amber Alert contains the wrong license plate number. Plates can be obscured, and people sometimes reverse letters and so forth when trying to remember or write down the plate number.

The number of people who have screwed up royally when trying to act as law enforcement far outweighs the number who have done more good than harm.

- Jim

[zach]

Sitting in endless traffic this morning on the Dallas North Tollway, I noticed one of the overhead electronic billboards displaying an Amber Alert message. Of course, instantly I started looking around at the vehicles next to me for possible vehicle matches, and then I began to daydream about what I might do if I stumbled across a suspect vehicle matching the license plate and vehicle description. Do I swerve in front of them and cut them off, then jump out with my gun drawn? Do I tail them and call the police?

So, my question to you - what would be a legal, appropriate course of action if you stumbled across an Amber Alert suspect? It's my understanding that an Amber Alert is civilian-operated program intended to notify the public of a missing child, but it is not a matter for Law Enforcement because the child hasn't been missing for X amount of hours.

Your thoughts? What would you do?

IIRC, amber alerts are activated by the police through the Department of Justice and the NCMEC.

I'd follow them with the LEO's on the phone, but stay out of their way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMBER_Alert" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[srothstein]

In addition to verifying the Amber Alert is a police operation, as others have posted, I wanted to correct one other misconception in your post. There is no minimum time for anyoen to be reported missing.

First, the Amber Alert system is now mandated by federal law, though Texas had one before that law. The system requires the local police handling the case to make several determinations, including the danger to the child. The DPS is then notified and puts the alert into action. DPS does coordinate with several other agencies and companies, but they are the responsible agency. For the laws on the Amber Alert, check the Government Code Chapter 411 starting at section 411.351 by clicking here. Also note that since the child is a kidnapping victim, they are not a missing person int he normal sense of the word and missing person laws would not apply.

Second and more important, there is a common belief that you cannot report a missing person for 24 or 48 hours. this is not true. You can, and should, report any person missing as soon as there is a reason to believe they are missing. The longer you wait, the more chance of evidence being lost or the trail getting cold. If a juvenile runs away, as one example, you can call the police and report it as soon as they walk out the door. If a person decides that they no longer want to be married and leaves, the spouse can call the police and report the person as missing as soon as there is reason to believe the person is not returning. If you noticed in the news recently, the Amber system now also has a Silver system for missing adults. Since adults with dementia wander off on a regular basis and can die if not found, there is now a system that duplicates the Amber Alert for these people. Clearly, these people are not criminals and not the victims of crime. But the system requests that the police notify them as soon as the case is determined. Again, the quicker word gets out to looks for them, the better the odds of their being found alive.

And to answer the last part of your post concerning what you should do, I will remind you of the necessary finding for an Amber Alert. The child must be in immediate danger. This means the suspect is DANGEROUS. I don't like going anywhere near dangerous people without lots of backup at least on the way and already present if possible. I strongly recommend that you do NOT try to do anything to stop or detain the suspect unless there is a greater chance of harm to the child. In other words, if you see a car that matches the description of the suspect vehicle, follow it and dial 911. But if you see a car that matches the description and it is pulled over so you can see the adult trying to strangle the child, pull over and take the appropriate action to stop the assault/murder.

[seamusTX]

I wrote,"keep the vehicle in sight without making the driver suspicious."

This statement was vague bordering on thoughtless (and I'm being nice to myself).

A kidnapper, who has committed a state and federal felony that is pursued and punished very harshly, is going to be paranoid.

If he suspects that you are following him, he is going to test that; and if he is convinced that you are following him, his actions may be unpredictable and dangerous.

I will leave it to those who have more knowledge of these things to make more specific recommendations.

BTW, we have one of these missing elderly cases in southern Galveston County now, quite a mess. If you live here and run into a confused elderly black man, you know what to do.
http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?ewc ... 315e126fd3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

[pedalman]

Agreed. You are better off keeping track of the location (mile markers, landmarks, etc), and relaying that information to 911 dispatch. Being armed does not obligate a civilian to play Superman. In fact, I consider this to be a BAD idea.

Concentrate on being a good tail/witness and stay out of the way.

Added as an afterthought

When communicating by phone to 911, it would be a good habit to relay license plates in a phonetic manner.

Example: 9RG-WLD would be Niner-Romeo-Gulf-Whiskey-Lima-Delta. You would be surprised at how much "nine" and "five" sound alike over the phone. The same goes for "m" and "n".

[Keith B]

Added as an afterthought

When communicating by phone to 911, it would be a good habit to relay license plates in a phonetic manner.

Example: 9RG-WLD would be Niner-Romeo-Gulf-Whiskey-Lima-Delta. You would be surprised at how much "nine" and "five" sound alike over the phone. The same goes for "m" and "n".

This is a good suggestion, but many law enforcement agencies use the Type 2 phonetic alphabet. Some of the dispatchers may not translate the Type 1 phonetics as readily. In this case, if it was a Texas tag, you would say ' Texas plate Ni-een Robert George William Lincoln David'

[pedalman]

Excellent point. Must be my prior military experience poking through.

[Keith B]

Excellent point. Must be my prior military experience poking through.

I understand. I had to switch around the other direction from 2 to 1 when I got my ham radio license. My previous LEO experience kept poking through!

Either way making sure they get the license number right is imperative. Thanks for the post!!

[particle]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful discussion. Seems the best course of action is to simply call authorities and try to follow the suspect vehicle without being spotted. Since this whole thread started as a result of my wandering thoughts and day dreams... what do you do if you don't have a phone on you (it's dead, or you forgot it at home, or you simply don't carry one)? Do you risk losing the supect by pulling off the road to find a public phone to call 911?

To be honest - on a CHL board, I figured there would be more people that would be proactive in the defense of the child (or a battered wife, or ATM hostage, etc.) since they are presumably in harm's way with little hope for a positive ending (especially if you don't have a phone to call in the suspect vehicle). Not trying to stir the pot or anything - just curious at what point you draw your weapon in the defense of another person. It seems like the law would be on your side if that's what it came down to, even if it might not always be the best/safest course of action.

[LarryH]

Not trying to stir the pot or anything - just curious at what point you draw your weapon in the defense of another person. It seems like the law would be on your side if that's what it came down to, even if it might not always be the best/safest course of action.

IMHO, if it's "going down", that's one thing. If the situation is still pending, that's another. I'd be much more likely to "do something" if the threat is immediate and active. Don't want to turn a potential situation into an active one, even a "stand-off".

YMMV.

[srothstein]

If you do not have a phone that works with you, pull over and get a public phone as soon as possible. The quicker you call it in, the quicker the information can be put out to the officers in the area to start looking for it.

As a side note to this, I recommend keeping an old phone in the car with a car charger if you can get one. Federal law requires all phone systems to recognize 911 calls, even if from a phone with no service. Your old phone when you upgrade makes a great car emergency phone, both for yourself and for uses liek this one.

And for the last point, I think that most of the CHLs I have met or talked with have just the right attitude. If the situation were deteriorating and a child or known kidnapping victim were about to be injured, then most of them would jump in to try to help. But, they will not jump in earlier than absolutely necessary. It is not their job and they are not trained for it, so they don't do it. Most of the CHL's I know recognize their limitations and understand them.

I have no doubt that anyone on this board would do everything in their power to save a child about to be injured, but the cases we are discussing here do not involve that immediacy.And, in my opinion, the immediacy of the need to help is the very key to when you should consider jumping in and when it is better to stay a witness.

[seamusTX]

I see a few people typed faster than I.

If all you can do is inform the authorities of the approximate location, that's a big help. At that point, they have narrowed their search from the whole world to a few square miles.

Cell phones are cheap. You can buy one at the dollar store for $10 (so much for the "dollar" store, but I digress.) These phones will call 911 even if they are not subscribed to a carrier.

Personally, if I had to make the hypothetical choice between a cell phone and a handgun, I would choose to have a cell phone. You can find yourself in more situations where a cell phone makes a life-and-death difference than a handgun. For example, I don't know of any heart-attack or stroke victims that were saved by a handgun, or any fires that were put out by one. (OK, guys, break out the rope.)

The world after the year 1980 is different from the world before. You can bring a dozen squad cars with sirens blazing, a couple of fire trucks and ambulances, and at least three helicopters to your location with the right call.

I carry a cell phone and everthing else I might find handy. The phrase, "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" applies to a lot of small objects that you can carry conveniently.

I tried to say it once already: A kidnapper is a desperate criminal and probably mentally unstable. No one in his right mind commits a felony that carries a punishment of life in prison and draws nationwide attention.

Many of these men (they are nearly always men) are willing to kill their own children and themselves rather than give up.

An individual who has no training in dealing with hostage situations or the capture and arrest of armed suspects has very little chance of doing it right, and a very good chance of getting himself and other people killed. it's not much different than if you took over the controls of a 767 without training.

A CHL allows you to carry a handgun legally. It is not a badge. It is not a TCLEOSE credential. It is not even a white hat.

BTW, Amber Alerts are issued only for children, not adult kidnapping victims.

- Jim

[boomerang]

To be honest - on a CHL board, I figured there would be more people that would be proactive in the defense of the child (or a battered wife, or ATM hostage, etc.) since they are presumably in harm's way with little hope for a positive ending (especially if you don't have a phone to call in the suspect vehicle).

If your goal is a positive ending for the kidnapped child, calling the police is the best way to help score that goal. Right now the kidnapper is busy driving a car so the victim is probably safe while the car is moving.

You should definitely carry a cell phone if that's a scenario that worries you. You can get a prepaid phone with an hour or two of talk time for $100 for a year. If that's too expensive, you can buy a phone with no service for less than $20 at Target or Walmart and you can call 911 even with no activation.