Good and Bad Leo contacts.

[G.A. Heath]

I have had a VERY large number of LEO contacts, too many to count, remember, or otherwise make note of. I can count on one hand the number of contacts I have had that I would classify as negative. If asked how what percentage of my contacts were negative I would honestly have to say far less than one tenth of one percent. Just for the record I tend to consider any unprofessional, negative, or questionable behaviour/statements to be a negative encounter.

My most frequent form of contact is the type where I bump into an officer in public, have a small conversation and we go on about our business. The Second most common form is where one or more come in to where I work to buy groceries for the county jail. The third most frequent contact is work related meaning I am in communication with an officer in regards to shoplifting, counterfeit/forged checks, accident in the parking lot, customer locked their keys in the car, ect. Even more rare is where I get a warning or a citation. There have been five of those, all were warnings with no citations. Two warnings (Pre-chl) were by city officers for failure to stop. With two stops (one being pre-chl) being with state troopers for speeding. The only negative contact (Also pre-chl) I had that was not work related was for no LP lights and it was negative only because the officer lied to me about the reason for the stop. One final encounter with no warnings/citations was due to a minor automotive accident that had no damage to my vehicle or the lady who stayed with me at the scene, we never did find our if the car that pushed me into hers had any damage or not as they fled the scene and was never found.

I will choose the worse case of ego and attitude as an example of poor law enforcement. I had an employee come in and ask me what to do because a customer had locked her keys in her car with the baby inside. The customer had paid for their product, and we had an employee carry it out for them. The lady popped the trunk of the car so our employee could load the product for her, then unlocked the right back door of the vehicle secured the baby in the seat. She went around to the other side of the car, got her eggs and bread as our employee shut the trunk, opened the rear door on the left side placed them in the seat, locked the door, and went to open the drivers door only to realize that her keys were with the bread and eggs locked in the car. We called Law Enforcement Center and they dispatched two LEOs to our business to assist the lady. One was a city officer and the other was a Deputy from the S.O. Unfortunately it was the one person from each department with the worst attitude in their department. After getting the lady's car unlocked they were looking to arrest her for leaving the child in the car while she shopped, and I would have been all for that IF that was the case which it was not. Both officers demanded that someone tell them that the lady did not have the child in the store with her, we explained that she did have the child with her and the car had been unlocked since she had shopped as evidenced by the groceries in the trunk and back seat. One officer stated "I don't care, I want someone to tell me she didn't have the baby in the store." After realizing they were not going to get what they wanted they left the store and went about their business. Unknown to them at the time, the sheriff's son was in the store and heard their statements. He advised his dad about the incident, I also communicated with the Sheriff and Police chief my displeasure in regards to the encounter.

Overall there are good people, bad people, and good people having a bad day. The same applies to law enforcement and in my experience the bad is extremely rare AND more likely to be noticed/remembered. Even the officers who attitudes are the worst in their department are doing a very stressful, dangerous, and unforgiving job and they are doing that job well enough to keep it. When you have a bad LEO encounter you need to contact that officers supervisors, learn why the encounter was negative (poor attitude, poor training, bad environment, actions by the subject, ect.) and help remedy the issue(s) that led up to the problem. In my experience less than one tenth of one percent of my LEO encounters have been negative and I know most of the officers in my county on a first name basis. I think most people need to remember that LEOs can have a bad day just like anyone else, but if you treat them professionally and with respect they will almost always return the favor. If any of the warnings I received had been citations I would have accepted it, admitted I was in the wrong, paid the fine, and would have thought nothing different of the officer.

[KBCraig]

I used to work for a warden who, during his annual training class on employee standards of conduct, said there are two ways to do wrong: mistakes of the head, and mistakes of the heart.

Anyone can have a mistake of the head, he said, and unless it's something terribly egregious, it can probably be forgiven unless a pattern develops. But mistakes of the heart, where your wrong actions come from your internal moral system being out of whack, are a zero-tolerance area. If you heart is wrong, he would say, you need to find a new line of work (and he would do everything he could to speed your unemployment).

Lot of wisdom in that.

If an officer is demanding that someone --anyone!-- tell a lie that will give him cause to make a false arrest, that officer's heart is all wrong for the job.

[Weg]

[atxgun]

I have had a VERY large number of LEO contacts .... If asked how what percentage of my contacts were negative I would honestly have to say far less than one tenth of one percent.

So, you've over 1,000 contacts?

[G.A. Heath]

I have had a VERY large number of LEO contacts .... If asked how what percentage of my contacts were negative I would honestly have to say far less than one tenth of one percent.

So, you've over 1,000 contacts?

In over 10 years at my current job easily. At work we deal with officers from the SO, PD, game warden, ect. in some official capacity. Now understand that we are not a crime ridden area, but we do spend a significant amount of time dealing with law enforcement for various reasons. These reasons range from commercial fishing license (retail purposes) and scale certifications on up to forged and counterfeit checks/cash and burglaries.

[WildBill]

Even the officers who attitudes are the worst in their department are doing a very stressful, dangerous, and unforgiving job and they are doing that job well enough to keep it.

This is not very comforting.

I am not sure what prompted your original post, but I appreciate that your LEO contacts have been good. Most people's contact with LEOs are in an adversarial situation, so I would expect a much larger percentage "bad" contacts for others.

[CompVest]

My contacts with LEO's come at the range generally at IDPA matches. Some are good and some aren't. It depends on their attitude. If their egos can handle civilians shooting better then they do, it is a good contact. They come back and get a chance to improve their gun handling skills. If they can't it is generally not good on their part and they don't come back. We do try to give them a positive experience and get them to come back. Some just can't take it.

[G.A. Heath]

I am not sure what prompted your original post, but I appreciate that your LEO contacts have been good. Most people's contact with LEOs are in an adversarial situation, so I would expect a much larger percentage "bad" contacts for others.

When I made the original post there were 3 negative LEO contacts at the top of the forum (most recently active topics). I felt a need to remind people that the large majority of LEO contacts are not negative and that most are not adversarial. Most people do not realize that an officers job is more than pulling people over and writing tickets, or waiting for that one rare robbery or what ever.

[WildBill]

I am not sure what prompted your original post, but I appreciate that your LEO contacts have been good. Most people's contact with LEOs are in an adversarial situation, so I would expect a much larger percentage "bad" contacts for others.

When I made the original post there were 3 negative LEO contacts at the top of the forum (most recently active topics). I felt a need to remind people that the large majority of LEO contacts are not negative and that most are not adversarial. Most people do not realize that an officers job is more than pulling people over and writing tickets, or waiting for that one rare robbery or what ever.

I think most of us realize that, but now and again, maybe we need a gentle reminder. That is why I think it is funny that some forum members think that all LEOs should be excellent shooters and be able to recit all of the CHL laws backwards and forwards. They must that think most of their days are spent in gunfights or arresting CHLs for 30.06 violations or printing.

On the other hand, I think that LEOs must also understand that most us only come into contact with them when only we are pulled over for for a minor crime such as speeding. This contact is, by definition, adversarial. The LEO is trying to charge you with a crime, and you are trying not to get charged with a crime. Since the LEO has a badge, a gun and the authority to lock you up, the experience can be frightening and intimidating. This traffic stop is probably the only LEO contact that they experience in the entire year, so if it isn't handled correctly it's not going to be a positive encounter.

When people are pulled over, many object to this intrusion into their lifes. They feel as they were unfairly targeted and may believe that most traffics stops have nothing to do with safety and are made strictly to collect revenue to add to the city coffers. Why don't the police spent their time catching real criminals?

Most of the people receiving citations are guilty of the crime and just want to take care of it and get on with their lives, but they get sucked into the Court system. When they try to made it right and take care of the violation they are required to jump through legal hoops that cost them more time and money. Yes the LEOs have a job to do, but most citizens also have jobs. Sometimes it seems the people who don't have jobs and contribute to society are penalized the most. This isn't the fault of LEOs, but they are the closet and most visible symbol "the system" so they tend to get blamed. It may be unfair, but it's also unfair for the law abiding citizen to be treated poorly because of others who may be criminals.

Just as most LEOs may be good and reasonable people, so are the citizens of Texas.

[jbirds1210]

<Snip> it is funny that some forum members think that all LEOs should be excellent shooters and be able to recit all of the CHL laws backwards and forwards

I do not think that is an unreasonable expectation (backwards would be tough ).

Jason

[CompVest]

If they aren't going to know the law they have no business trying to enforce it.

[WildBill]

I think it is an unreasonable expectation. "Texas law contains more than a thousand crimes, scattered throughout dozens of codes." This is one reason that civil, personal injury, employment, divorce, probate, patent, real estate and tax lawyers don't practice criminal law. That said, LEOs should not arrest someone for a law that they don't understand.

http://www.austintexascriminaldefense.c ... lcode.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CompVest]

You missed my point. I didn't say they should know all the laws but they should know the ones they are trying to enforce and certainly those they are most likely to deal with such as the laws concerning CHL and carry in vehicles. I carried an abridged version of the Laws and Codes when I was in law enforcement to cover the thousands of codes I didn't use on a regular bases. If you don't know it at least know where to find it.

I don't think it is wrong to expect this any more then it is wrong to expect LEO's to be competitent in the use of their firearms. Afterall this is a major piece of equipment for thier job. If they drove their squad cars like they shoot their guns, they would be spending all of their time writing reports about their own accidents.

I am not bashing LEO's I just feel that anyone in any job should be at least knowlegable about their job and competitent in using the tools for that job.

[Kalrog]

I think it is an unreasonable expectation. "Texas law contains more than a thousand crimes, scattered throughout dozens of codes." This is one reason that civil, personal injury, employment, divorce, probate, patent, real estate and tax lawyers don't practice criminal law. That said, LEOs should not arrest someone for a law that they don't understand.

http://www.austintexascriminaldefense.c ... lcode.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it is unreasonable for citizens to know and follow all of the laws in a situation such as the one we find ourselves in. The legislators don't know all of the laws, the cops don't know all of the laws. None of the could because of how many there are. Yet you are required to obey them all and if not face the consequences.

[CompVest]

Great point. Good perspective.